[governance] Conflicts in Internet Governance

Tue Apr 16 00:16:03 EDT 2013

Avri,

On 04/15/2013 07:25 PM, Avri Doria wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I do not see the contradiction in 1. You are assuming that the 
> citizens have only one form of participation. And you are assuming 
> that people only interact in government in one way. Personally I also 
> advocate a multistakeholder approach within a country by those living 
> in that country. Of course that its not the case very often at this 
> point. As for enforcement that happens in many ways, some of which may 
> even be citizen based.
>
Perhaps 'some of enforcement' may be citizen based (request you to give 
examples). But that may be an exception to the rule that it is the 
Government which has the duty to enforce law. Do you accept this. 
citizens enforcing law just like the government is nothing but vigilantism.

If so, do you accept that Government has a different role from other 
stakeholders in this important task of enforcing law?

> On the second point, ultimately the legitimacy of any government rests 
> with the citizen, whether as voter, organizer, advocate, demonstrator 
> or activist. So government only rules to the extent to which those who 
> live in a country allow them to rule. Indeed in case of the worse 
> autocracy the citizen effort to change things is quite huge and 
> sometimes deadly, but as the seasonal, color and other revolutions 
> show, the people have the power when they decide they need to take the 
> power.
>

Nicely said. That finally Government legitimacy is provided by the 
citizen. In our democracies, including as a voter to unseat governments 
if needed. Thus there is a special relationship of accountability of the 
government to the citizen

Such an accountability, alas, is not available vis-a-vis the private 
sector or individuals. So how do you see a corporate or even a technical 
expert as an 'equal' stakeholder in policy making?

I have no hesitation in agreeing that Governments can be authoritarian, 
corrupt, inefficientetc etcetc. However, I am not able to understand how 
you think that their role in governance (enforcing law being a very 
important component of this) can be 'equated' to other stakeholders.

Your clarifications on my points will help me better understand your view.

regards,
Guru

>
> "Guru गुरु" <Guru at ITforChange.net> wrote:
>
>     On 04/15/2013 05:18 PM, Avri Doria wrote:
>>     I think I answered it several times in several ways.
>>
>>     Within their respective countries they, whether North Korea,
>>     Azerbaijan or Sweden, get to enforce laws to the extent that
>>     citizens allow on those within their physical territory.
>>
>
>     Avri,
>
>     1. From your line above, I suppose you accept that other
>     stakeholders in each of these (and other) countries will not have
>     a role in enforcing law within their physical territory, which the
>     Governments have.
>
>     If you do accept this, then your wish that  "government
>     participation as equal/equivalent stakeholders in Internet
>     governance" contradicts the above, in the context of law
>     enforcement within their physical territory. Will you accept that
>     your wish is meaningless to the extent of this contradiction.
>
>
>     2. I could not understand what you mean by "to the extent that
>     citizens allow", do you mean that the citizens can refuse
>     enforcement of law by the Government. Would you extend such a
>     privilege to decide what laws to follow and what not to follow to
>     areas other than IG?
>
>     I request your clarifications.
>
>     Guru
>     ps  - On the issue of law enforcement beyond territorial borders, 
>     I hope to seek clarification separately
>
>
>>     "Guru गुरु" <Guru at ITforChange.net> wrote:
>>
>>         On 04/15/2013 06:55 AM, Avri Doria wrote:
>>
>>             On 14 Apr 2013, at 12:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>                 But here, on the IGC list, what I'm attempting to do
>>                 (for the sake of avoiding any misunderstanding) is
>>                 discovering what the various correspondents
>>                 understand to be "the Internet", upon which they wish
>>                 "no government interference". I asked a question of
>>                 Avri, perhaps you could answer it also. 
>>
>>             I tend to think of the Internet as an emergent, and
>>             emerging, reality consisting of hardware, protocols and
>>             software, and human intentionality brought together by a
>>             common set of design principles and constrained by
>>             policies fashioned by the stakeholders. I beleive "no
>>             government interference" is an inaccurate representation
>>             of what I wish for. I wish for "no government control," I
>>             also wish for government participation as
>>             equal/equivalent stakeholders in Internet governance. I
>>             am sure that would be considered government interference
>>             by some. And would be considered "no government
>>             interference" by others. avri 
>>
>>         Avri
>>
>>         Do you think government needs to enforce law. would such enforcement
>>         require 'control'? (I think andrea glorioso asked this question in two
>>         emails pointedly but i think without response)
>>
>>         Guru
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     ~~~
>>     avri 
>
>
> ~~~
> avri 

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