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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Avri,<br>
<br>
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On 04/15/2013 07:25 PM, Avri Doria wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:2e914496-538b-47e9-a52e-3a356beb22e6@email.android.com"
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Hi,<br>
<br>
I do not see the contradiction in 1. You are assuming that the
citizens have only one form of participation. And you are assuming
that people only interact in government in one way. Personally I
also advocate a multistakeholder approach within a country by
those living in that country. Of course that its not the case very
often at this point. As for enforcement that happens in many ways,
some of which may even be citizen based.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Perhaps 'some of enforcement' may be citizen based (request you to
give examples). But that may be an exception to the rule that it is
the Government which has the duty to enforce law. Do you accept
this. citizens enforcing law just like the government is nothing but
vigilantism.<br>
<br>
If so, do you accept that Government has a different role from other
stakeholders in this important task of enforcing law?<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2e914496-538b-47e9-a52e-3a356beb22e6@email.android.com"
type="cite">
On the second point, ultimately the legitimacy of any government
rests with the citizen, whether as voter, organizer, advocate,
demonstrator or activist. So government only rules to the extent
to which those who live in a country allow them to rule. Indeed in
case of the worse autocracy the citizen effort to change things is
quite huge and sometimes deadly, but as the seasonal, color and
other revolutions show, the people have the power when they decide
they need to take the power.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Nicely said. That finally Government legitimacy is provided by the
citizen. In our democracies, including as a voter to unseat
governments if needed. Thus there is a special relationship of
accountability of the government to the citizen<br>
<br>
Such an accountability, alas, is not available vis-a-vis the private
sector or individuals. So how do you see a <font face="Verdana">
corporate or even a technical expert a<font face="Verdana">s an </font>
'equal<font face="Verdana">'</font> stakeholder in policy making<font
face="Verdana">?<br>
<br>
I have no hesitation in agreeing that Governments can be
authoritarian<font face="Verdana">, corrupt, inefficient<font
face="Verdana"> etc etc<font face="Verdana"> etc. However, I
am not able to understand how you think that th<font
face="Verdana">eir r<font face="Verdana">ole <font
face="Verdana">in <font face="Verdana">governance
(enforcing law <font face="Verdana">being a very
important compone<font face="Verdana">nt of
this)</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>
can be 'equated' to other stakeholders<font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">.<font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"></font></font></font></font></font>
<font face="Verdana"></font><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"></font></font><br>
<br>
Your clarifications on my points will help me better
understand your view.</font><br>
<br>
</font></font>regards,<br>
Guru<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2e914496-538b-47e9-a52e-3a356beb22e6@email.android.com"
type="cite"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">"Guru गुरु" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Guru@ITforChange.net"><Guru@ITforChange.net></a>
wrote:
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/15/2013 05:18 PM, Avri
Doria wrote:<br>
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<blockquote
cite="mid:6b819825-adf1-439f-88b1-49ae71a97f2a@email.android.com"
type="cite">I think I answered it several times in several
ways. <br>
<br>
Within their respective countries they, whether North Korea,
Azerbaijan or Sweden, get to enforce laws to the extent that
citizens allow on those within their physical territory.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Avri,<br>
<br>
1. From your line above, I suppose you accept that other
stakeholders in each of these (and other) countries will not
have a role in enforcing law within their physical territory,
which the Governments have. <br>
<br>
If you do accept this, then your wish that "government
participation as equal/equivalent stakeholders in Internet
governance" contradicts the above, in the context of law
enforcement within their physical territory. Will you accept
that your wish is meaningless to the extent of this
contradiction.<br>
<br>
<br>
2. I could not understand what you mean by "to the extent that
citizens allow", do you mean that the citizens can refuse
enforcement of law by the Government. Would you extend such a
privilege to decide what laws to follow and what not to follow
to areas other than IG? <br>
<br>
I request your clarifications. <br>
<br>
Guru<br>
ps - On the issue of law enforcement beyond territorial
borders, I hope to seek clarification separately<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:6b819825-adf1-439f-88b1-49ae71a97f2a@email.android.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">"Guru गुरु" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:Guru@ITforChange.net"><Guru@ITforChange.net></a>
wrote:
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; word-wrap:break-word; font-family: sans-serif; margin-top: 0px">On 04/15/2013 06:55 AM, Avri Doria wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">On 14 Apr 2013, at 12:37, Roland Perry wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;">But here, on the IGC list, what I'm attempting to do (for the sake of avoiding any misunderstanding) is discovering what the various correspondents understand to be "the Internet", upon which they wish "no government interference".
I asked a question of Avri, perhaps you could answer it also.
</blockquote>I tend to think of the Internet as an emergent, and emerging, reality consisting of hardware, protocols and software, and human intentionality brought together by a common set of design principles and constrained by policies fashioned
by the stakeholders.
I beleive "no government interference" is an inaccurate representation of what I wish for. I wish for "no government control," I also wish for government participation as equal/equivalent stakeholders in Internet governance. I am sure that would be considered government interference by some. And would be considered "no government interference" by others.
avri
</blockquote>Avri
Do you think government needs to enforce law. would such enforcement
require 'control'? (I think andrea glorioso asked this question in two
emails pointedly but i think without response)
Guru
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~~~<br>
avri </blockquote>
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<br>
~~~<br>
avri
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