[governance] MSism and democracy

Wed Jun 22 05:35:23 EDT 2011

Merci Karim pour cette voix française si rarement "entendue" ici ...

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Jean-Louis Fullsack
CSDPTT

> Message du 21/06/11 10:54
> De : karim.attoumanimohamed at ties.itu.int
> A : governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Paul Lehto" 
> Copie à : governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Marilia Maciel" , "McTim" , "parminder" 
> Objet : Re: [governance] MSism and democracy
> 
> +1
> 
> Je voulais surtout rajouter par rapport à ce qui a été si bien dit dans tous les
> commentaires faits dans la liste que la difficulté de contribuer pour les non
> anglophones réside sur le temps nécessaire à essayer de comprendre ce qui a été
> dit et de traduire ce qu'on pense en anglais pour se faire comprendre par la
> communauté.
> Il faut saluer par contre la disponibilité des outils de traduction même si nous
> avons tous fait l'expérience de voir ce qui est traduit nécessitant quelques
> corrections et une contextualisation pour comprendre de quoi il s'agit.
> Pendant ce temps où la communauté (anglophone) échange, élabore les points de
> décision, beaucoup d'acteurs ne font que suivre à distance (par exemple mon cas)
> et au moment où on arrive à publier quelque chose, qu'on s'est forcé et prendre
> le soin de le traduire, on se rend compte que le point a été déjà abordé et des
> conclusions ont été faites.
> Je crois que c'est un point très important à prendre en compte dans cette
> démarche de multi-partismes si je peux le dire ainsi et je crois aussi qu'en
> parler au prochain FGI à Nairobi serait une bonne chose.
> 
> ATTOUMANI MOHAMED Karim,
> Comoros representative on the Governmental Advisory Committee of ICANN
> Ingénieur Télécoms en Transmission, Réseaux et Commutation
> Chef du Département Études et Projets,
> Autorité Nationale de Régulation des TIC (ANRTIC) - Union des Comores,
> (+269) 334 37 06 (Mobile Moroni) - ID Skype: attoukarim
> Quoting Paul Lehto :
> 
> > On 6/20/11, Marilia Maciel wrote:
> > > I have to say that this has been one of the best threads of discussion I
> > > have ever seen on this list. I am sorry I jumped in late to comment on
> > many
> > > of the issues regarding multilingualism. But the way that the discussion
> > has
> > > shifted from one ISM to the other clearly illustrates Parminder´s point
> > > about the need to improve multistakeholderism.
> > 
> > Agreed, a useful discussion indeed. I wish to add or emphasize some
> > points that add nuance and perhaps paradox or contradiction to some
> > extent.
> > 
> > 1. I have had an international/intercultural marital relationship
> > since 1997. I've seen the change from the early years where language
> > difficulties were more pronounced. However, there was a definite
> > relationship-advantage to these difficulties because we could also,
> > and often did, think that differences were "cultural differences" and
> > the like and not personal attacks. As we got to be more and more like
> > co-native speakers of English, this relationship advantage tended to
> > go away, and there were therefore more disagreements, usually because
> > we more easily concluded a personal comment or innuendo was intended,
> > and not a "cultural difference" in expression.
> > 
> > The moral of this story about multilingualism is that intercultural or
> > multilingual communication has its advantages in terms of promoting
> > mutual respect of the parties, as well as disadvantages, many of which
> > have already been pointed to, with good expression.
> > 
> > 2. Going a little deeper, even among native speakers or fluent
> > speakers of a given language, there are many sub-languages that are
> > often not recognized. I imagine every language is like English and
> > thus that in every language, the written and verbal forms of the
> > language can be considered sub-languages. The evidence of this is
> > seen when very good verbal communication is reduced to a written
> > transcript, and we see the "loss in translation" so to speak. The
> > reverse is also true, when the written is read out loud, it often
> > loses a little, and/or the reader has to add pause and emphasis not in
> > the text in order to make it most sensible. Lawyers doing
> > court-related work like depositions learn to be quite conscious of how
> > the verbal word will translate onto and read on paper. Well, if the
> > lawyers are any good they become conscious of this difference.
> > 
> > Each technical discipline develops its own specialized vocabulary.
> > The control of the meanings of words by experts in each field allows
> > their number of meanings to be reduced, and to have those meanings be
> > precise. While most everyone hates to see something expressed in
> > legal-ese or other technical jargon, there are reasons why this
> > legalese develops. If we 'translate' into "plain English", the
> > shorter words used tend quite heavily to have many more definitions in
> > terms of numbers, and are thus more ambiguous by quite a bit than
> > technical speech, even though technical speech or legalese is by no
> > means always clear, even to people in the discipline who know that
> > sub-language well.
> > 
> > 3. WHile my third point here does not mean to dismiss any efforts in
> > this area whatever, we should also be aware of the positive sides of
> > multilingualism, and the advantages of communication when the parties
> > are aware of, and respectful of, the limitations of language. A large
> > part, but not all, of the positive effects of multilingualism comes
> > from the awareness of the limitations of speech, which are always
> > present, but rarely fully acknowledged by speakers who are both either
> > native speakers or fluent in the language. These limitations are, of
> > course, also experienced by native speakers -- especially when talking
> > across sub-languages of the native tongue -- but very often the native
> > speakers are totally unaware of the fact that a minor form of
> > translation is needed within the sub-languages!
> > 
> > On ted.com recently there was a short video presentation from a woman
> > who taught English in the Middle East. It ended up being a passionate
> > defense of the need for multiple languages. Because we all know
> > things are lost in translation, or not translatable, we need to
> > preserve multiple languages in order to preserve certain valuable or
> > different ways of thinking. We might still have a common currency or
> > common language, but it should not be at the expense of losing our
> > capabilities for whatever things Persian, Spanish, Finnish, Tongan or
> > other languages have, that English does not have.
> > 
> > I do not think we should yearn for the destruction of all language
> > barriers. In fact, the irreducible reality that every time we speak
> > we speak at least somewhat ambiguously means that in order to have
> > real conversation we must each yearn or desire to understand the
> > other. We can not assume that all meaning is right there at the
> > surface and at first glance if we truly wish to be civil and to
> > understand. So, IF WE ARE CIVIL, then the very ambiguity of language
> > is a blessing that actually helps bring people together. It is only
> > the universal spirit of rudeness or intolerance that doesn't try to
> > understand the other. The problem is more one of intolerance than it
> > is one of multiple languages, or even of being understood. Put
> > another way, if all human language were as clear as the clearest
> > programmers' code, life would be a total bore.
> > 
> > Yours in a salute to [initial] ambiguity, provided the participants
> > have mutual respect! ;)
> > 
> > Paul
> > 
> > -- 
> > Paul R Lehto, J.D.
> > P.O. Box 1
> > Ishpeming, MI 49849
> > lehto.paul at gmail.com
> > 906-204-4026 (cell)
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> 
> 
> 
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