[governance] MSism and democracy

[Roxana Goldstein]

ypu say:
I may have missed key parts of your ideas in some of your Spanish
messages, but I have failed to see what kind of solution you envisioned.

All I could see in the way of concrete proposals were
(1) automatic translation is bad and
(2) the society/state(s) should solve the problem, not individuals.

Which is not very much to go by. So I wanted to open them up a bit.

My answer:
again you are surpassing the first of my points:

1. I am far from having a binary thinking -black or white-. So I think it is
a waste of time carrying this debate to a dual situation -automatic
translators yes or no-.

now I add "individuals vs. society", etc.

You introduce/see/add/perceive a kind of binary approach in my position,
that is far from my point of view and far from the way I analyze any
problem.

Sorry for any misunderstanding. But this kind of overinterpretation of my
position makes me unconfortable. If you think this as a binary problem, then
put this point in your own words and thougths -with your sign, clearly being
you the author, I hope this to be clearly understood-, not in mines.

Thanks,
Roxana




2011/6/10 Tapani Tarvainen <tapani.tarvainen at effi.org>

> On Thu, Jun 09, 2011 at 09:44:13PM -0300, Roxana Goldstein (
> goldstein.roxana at gmail.com) wrote:
>
> > Tapani, I really do not understand what is your point.
>
> My apologies for being unclear.
>
> > Perhaps are your interests being affected by my point of view?
>
> I have no personal interests (as in money stakes) here, if that's
> what you mean. (I suspect English translation problem here.)
>
> But I am definitely interested in having my understanding of the issue
> and my opinions changed by what you're saying - that's the primary
> reason why I am engaging in this debate.
>
> > It is another waste of time trying to find something hidden in my
> > message. I am a very direct person both face to face and virtually, so
> what
> > I say is what I think, no second intentions.
>
> I didn't intend to imply you had a hidden agenda.
> I was just trying to explore the possible consequences of
> your ideas.
>
> I may have missed key parts of your ideas in some of your Spanish
> messages, but I have failed to see what kind of solution you envisioned.
>
> All I could see in the way of concrete proposals were
> (1) automatic translation is bad and
> (2) the society/state(s) should solve the problem, not individuals.
>
> Which is not very much to go by. So I wanted to open them up a bit.
>
> > 3. We must not loose our time in a personal debate -taking the debate to
> a
> > personal confrontation-,
>
> Of course not, that was not my intention.
> Please don't take disagreement on issues as personal!
>
> Indeed I must confess surprise at that accusation, but
> then I realized we're having yet another language issue here -
> not along the English/Spanish/whatever line, but across it,
> using different styles within the same language.
>
> I come from science/academic background, used to the idea that
> truth and best solutions are found with debate, thorough and
> merciless attempt to find any flaws in all arguments and
> ideas presented - where expression of disagreement is
> not a personal attack but a compliment, implying the
> idea is worth analysing and working on, not a dismissal.
> Good ideas are debated, the more fiercely the better they are,
> bad ideas are simply ignored.
>
> And I do think debate, even strong and confrontational, is useful,
> not waste of time - but debate on *issues*, not personal.
>
> > instead, let's use this space to debate on policies, solutions, for
> > the intercultural communication issue
>
> Absolutely. That's exactly what I've been trying to do.
> My apologies for expressing myself poorly.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> --
> Tapani Tarvainen
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