<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">ypu say:</span><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">I may have missed key parts of your ideas in some of your Spanish<br>
messages, but I have failed to see what kind of solution you envisioned.<br><br>All I could see in the way of concrete proposals were<br>(1) automatic translation is bad and<br>(2) the society/state(s) should solve the problem, not individuals.<br>
<br>Which is not very much to go by. So I wanted to open them up a bit.<br></span><br></div><div>My answer:</div><div>again you are surpassing the first of my points:</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; "><div>
1. I am far from having a binary thinking -black or white-. So I think it is a waste of time carrying this debate to a dual situation -automatic translators yes or no-.</div><div><br></div><div>now I add "individuals vs. society", etc.</div>
<div><br></div><div>You introduce/see/add/perceive a kind of binary approach in my position, that is far from my point of view and far from the way I analyze any problem.</div><div><br></div><div>Sorry for any misunderstanding. But this kind of overinterpretation of my position makes me unconfortable. If you think this as a binary problem, then put this point in your own words and thougths -with your sign, clearly being you the author, I hope this to be clearly understood-, not in mines.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Roxana</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></span></div><div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/6/10 Tapani Tarvainen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tapani.tarvainen@effi.org">tapani.tarvainen@effi.org</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="im">On Thu, Jun 09, 2011 at 09:44:13PM -0300, Roxana Goldstein (<a href="mailto:goldstein.roxana@gmail.com">goldstein.roxana@gmail.com</a>) wrote:<br>
<br>
> Tapani, I really do not understand what is your point.<br>
<br>
</div>My apologies for being unclear.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> Perhaps are your interests being affected by my point of view?<br>
<br>
</div>I have no personal interests (as in money stakes) here, if that's<br>
what you mean. (I suspect English translation problem here.)<br>
<br>
But I am definitely interested in having my understanding of the issue<br>
and my opinions changed by what you're saying - that's the primary<br>
reason why I am engaging in this debate.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> It is another waste of time trying to find something hidden in my<br>
> message. I am a very direct person both face to face and virtually, so what<br>
> I say is what I think, no second intentions.<br>
<br>
</div>I didn't intend to imply you had a hidden agenda.<br>
I was just trying to explore the possible consequences of<br>
your ideas.<br>
<br>
I may have missed key parts of your ideas in some of your Spanish<br>
messages, but I have failed to see what kind of solution you envisioned.<br>
<br>
All I could see in the way of concrete proposals were<br>
(1) automatic translation is bad and<br>
(2) the society/state(s) should solve the problem, not individuals.<br>
<br>
Which is not very much to go by. So I wanted to open them up a bit.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> 3. We must not loose our time in a personal debate -taking the debate to a<br>
> personal confrontation-,<br>
<br>
</div>Of course not, that was not my intention.<br>
Please don't take disagreement on issues as personal!<br>
<br>
Indeed I must confess surprise at that accusation, but<br>
then I realized we're having yet another language issue here -<br>
not along the English/Spanish/whatever line, but across it,<br>
using different styles within the same language.<br>
<br>
I come from science/academic background, used to the idea that<br>
truth and best solutions are found with debate, thorough and<br>
merciless attempt to find any flaws in all arguments and<br>
ideas presented - where expression of disagreement is<br>
not a personal attack but a compliment, implying the<br>
idea is worth analysing and working on, not a dismissal.<br>
Good ideas are debated, the more fiercely the better they are,<br>
bad ideas are simply ignored.<br>
<br>
And I do think debate, even strong and confrontational, is useful,<br>
not waste of time - but debate on *issues*, not personal.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> instead, let's use this space to debate on policies, solutions, for<br>
> the intercultural communication issue<br>
<br>
</div>Absolutely. That's exactly what I've been trying to do.<br>
My apologies for expressing myself poorly.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="h5">Tapani Tarvainen<br>
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