Milton don't start with the private email. Re: [governance]

Sun Aug 16 10:52:38 EDT 2009

Joe, you've made my filter list.
--MM

________________________________
From: publicroot.info at gmail.com [mailto:publicroot.info at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Joe Baptista
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:00 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Michael Gurstein
Subject: Re: Milton don't start with the private email. Re: [governance]

On 8/15/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com<mailto:gurstein at gmail.com>> wrote:

The kind of mocking/goading/personalized attacking behaviour

do you read latin?

that is evidenced below

No it is not. You need latin to understand it.

and by emails coming from several new members of the list is to my mind unacceptable as it acts to intimidate/bully and otherwise close off discussion and restrict participation.

I would suggest that the co-moderators of the list introduce arbitrarily or otherwise some limits on acceptable list behaviour (attacks on the person not on the idea for example) and after appropriate warning remove offenders from the list accordingly.

Now would that mean Milton would be held accountable for his libel and slander. Since everything you have pointed out applies to him. Or are elitist intellectuals excluded from these arbitrary policies?

  This is not censorship, rather it is self-preservation and necessary for the on-going effective functioning of this group.

It's censorship. If it's arbitrary in any way then it's censorship. I think the filter guy has the better idea.

Anyway - here I am feeding the censorship trolls.

cheers
joe baptista

MBG
-----Original Message-----
From: publicroot.info<http://publicroot.info>@gmail.com<http://gmail.com> [mailto:publicroot.info at gmail.com<mailto:publicroot.info at gmail.com>] On Behalf Of Joe Baptista
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 7:05 PM
To: Milton L Mueller; governance at lists.cpsr.org<mailto:governance at lists.cpsr.org>
Subject: Milton don't start with the private email. Re: [governance] Trying to

Milton i'm not a big fan of private email with elitist intellectuals. I'm holding you accountable here in your public role.
On 8/15/09, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu<mailto:mueller at syr.edu>> wrote:

Opposition to posting limits is not advocacy of censorship, Joe.

Mendacem memorem esse oporte. Don't pull this argumentative nonsense with me. Focus Milton. Focus. You are an elitist intellectual leader here. You set the minimum standards - abera lege?

You are seen here as a leader. Your job is to lead. Not feed the trolls. It is completely irrelevant at this point what you have to say in this. The big problem is that you keep feeding the censorship trolls. Your so called advocacy amounts to no more nor less then fanning the flames that keep the censorship trolls trolling. Your BWG - you know what your doing - you should known better - isto pensitaris.

You have also libeled and slander Jeff Williams, Hugh Dierker, Karl Peter and myself. I dismiss it as party games and i'm sure Hugh and Jeff can look after themselves. But to liable and slander Karl Peters? Thats very impolitic of you. Nes pas? Karl Peters sees you as a patron saint of the TLDA? According to them - thats Bradley Thornton, Gene Marsh, and Richard Sexton you promised them support to the TLDA if needed. I detect some non disclosed conflict of interest in this libel and slander.

But you don't know Karl. I can call Karl a fool - I know him well - but you can't. Karl is not your intellectual equal nor superior by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think there is any question of that. He is very much your inferior. By pointing him out like you did in your capacity as an intellectual elitist amounts to playing the bully. Thats not nice. The eltist intellectual has caused an inferior pain. There is blood on your hands.

You supposed to be helping Karl run the TLDA and fulfilling your promises. Not libeling and slandering on of it's officers and directors. Maybe your forgetful en mendacem memorem esse oporte.

Your contributions just amount to troll feeding and the eletist intelectual bullying of an unfortunate like Karl. How is Karl ever to get a job if someone references that with your position.

Trying reading more carefully next time.

All I have to say to you and your conduct is da mihi sis bubulae frustrum assae, solana tuberosa in modo gallico fricta, ac quassum lactatum coagulatum crassum. That is tha appropriate position to take with you.

kindest regards
joe baptista

--MM

________________________________

From: publicroot.info<http://publicroot.info>@gmail.com<http://gmail.com> [mailto:publicroot.info at gmail.com<mailto:publicroot.info at gmail.com>] On Behalf Of Joe Baptista
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 8:41 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org<mailto:governance at lists.cpsr.org>; Milton L Mueller
Cc: Rui Correia

Subject: Re: [governance] Trying to "fix" the list

On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu<mailto:mueller at syr.edu>> wrote:

Rui makes a reasonable suggestion but I do not support posting limits because the real problem is not the number of posts per person but the quality and pertinence of the posts. e.g.,

Censorship. That's the elitist intellectual in you advocating censorship. Should you not instead be focusing your time on your inclusive GNSO project? Instead of advocating censorship? Milton.

if Parminder and Bill Drake are really going at it, I wouldn't mind seeing 10 each from both of them in one day. Any reasonable posting limit - say, 5 per day - would still allow people who have nothing to say but plenty of time, to waste our time and generate reactions from others.

More elitist intellectual censorship moralist mongering. Milton - you are here to lead - not feed the censorship trolls this nonsense.

Now how is your little project going.? Where do I join?

regards
joe baptista

________________________________

From: Rui Correia [mailto:correia.rui at gmail.com<mailto:correia.rui at gmail.com>]
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 5:49 AM

To: governance at lists.cpsr.org<mailto:governance at lists.cpsr.org>; Jeanette Hofmann
Subject: Re: [governance] Trying to "fix" the list

Dear All

I am on a list on which they imposed a quota of daily posting by members - that will at least address the issue of having some members commenting on every single posting that others submit on a given issue. Anyone exceeding the quota gets a warning and after that suspension for x amount of time.

Obviously there should be exceptions for list admin/ event up-date announcements etc by list administrators.

And implement something like this is no more censorship than setting a time limit during question time/ not allowing same person to make more than one question during question time/ not accepting submission of more than x hundred words. Time is valuable, we are all very busy and so it is only fair that we allow as many people a voice in as short time as possible, taking into account that we have to set aside time to read others' contributions.

And unless we are voting, could we perhaps cut down on "yes, I agree"/ "good point, Joe Soap" - unless Joe Soap's point actually makes you change your mind, in which case you might want to retract/ amend your earlier position making it clear that that is what you are doing.

Best regards,

Rui

2009/8/14 Jeanette Hofmann <jeanette at wzb.eu>

Hi all,

I think it is a mistake to conflate the issue of discourse pollution with the issue of decision making capacity.

The strength of this list relies on its openness, which facilitates contributions from IG participants and observers regardless of their membership status. If we moved advocacy related discussions to more specific lists, the general discussion list would most likely become irrelevant within a few months. So, like Avri, I am very much against creating or moving the discussion to new lists as a means of dealing with abuse.

The creation of troll filters is a good interim solution but not sufficient to protect the open space of this list. For example, filters don't prevent ad hominem attacks.

After having skimmed through the "unsubscribe" discussion of the last 10 days, I get the feeling that the lack of decision making capacity, which is so typical for this list, applies also to the issue of trolls.

My suggestion would be to ask the coordinators to come up with a few options for action.
One option, supported by Ginger and Parminder, is to move this discussion elsewhere.
Another option would be to adjust our charter by adding a section on abuse.

The following para of our charter, for example, could be expanded a bit to take into account other forms of of discourse pollution:

"Some of the specific guidelines that will be enforced include those relating to:
*No personal insults
*No spam"

The members of this list would have to agree on a general definition of abuse and appropriate means of action against it.

There might be other options. In any case, I would like to ask out coordinators to apply some form of leadership to overcome the present impasse and help restoring this discussion space.

jeanette

Rui Correia
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Consultant
2 Cutten St
Horison
Roodepoort-Johannesburg,
South Africa
Tel/ Fax (+27-11) 766-4336
Mobile (+27) (0) 84-498-6838
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PublicRoot Consortium
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