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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Joe, you’ve made my filter list. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>--MM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
publicroot.info@gmail.com [mailto:publicroot.info@gmail.com] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Joe Baptista<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, August 15, 2009
11:00 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> governance@lists.cpsr.org;
Michael Gurstein<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Milton</st1:place></st1:City> don't start with the private email.
Re: [governance] </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmailquote><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On 8/15/09, <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Michael
Gurstein</span></b> <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>The kind of mocking/goading/personalized
attacking behaviour</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
do you read latin? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>that is evidenced below </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
No it is not. You need latin to understand it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>and by emails coming from several new
members of the list is to my mind unacceptable as it acts to intimidate/bully
and otherwise close off discussion and restrict participation.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I would suggest that the co-moderators of
the list introduce arbitrarily or otherwise some limits on acceptable list
behaviour (attacks on the person not on the idea for example) and after
appropriate warning remove offenders from the list accordingly.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Now would that mean <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Milton</st1:place></st1:City>
would be held accountable for his libel and slander. Since everything you have
pointed out applies to him. Or are elitist intellectuals excluded from these
arbitrary policies?<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> This is not censorship, rather it
is self-preservation and necessary for the on-going effective functioning of
this group.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
It's censorship. If it's arbitrary in any way then it's censorship. I think the
filter guy has the better idea.<br>
<br>
Anyway - here I am feeding the censorship trolls.<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
joe baptista<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>MBG</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=q><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----</span></font></span><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<span class=q><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="http://publicroot.info" target="_blank">publicroot.info</a>@<a
href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a
href="mailto:publicroot.info@gmail.com" target="_blank">publicroot.info@gmail.com</a>]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Joe Baptista</span></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div><span id="q_1232117a96f1f5e4_2">
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=e><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b></span><span
class=e><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Tahoma'> Saturday, August 15, 2009 7:05 PM</span></font></span><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<span class=e><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Milton L
Mueller; <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a></span><br>
<span class=e><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Milton</st1:place></st1:City> don't start with
the private email. Re: [governance] Trying to</span><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span id="q_1232117a96f1f5e4_4">
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><span class=e>Milton</span></st1:place></st1:City><span
class=e> i'm not a big fan of private email with elitist intellectuals. I'm
holding you accountable here in your public role.<o:p></o:p></span></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmailquote><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On 8/15/09, <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Milton L
Mueller</span></b> <<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>>
wrote:</span></font></span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div vlink=blue link=blue>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Opposition to posting limits is not advocacy of censorship,
Joe. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Mendacem memorem esse oporte. Don't pull this argumentative nonsense with me.
Focus <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Milton</st1:place></st1:City>.
Focus. You are an elitist intellectual leader here. You set the minimum
standards - abera lege?<br>
<br>
You are seen here as a leader. Your job is to lead. Not feed the trolls. It is
completely irrelevant at this point what you have to say in this. The big
problem is that you keep feeding the censorship trolls. Your so called advocacy
amounts to no more nor less then fanning the flames that keep the censorship
trolls trolling. Your BWG - you know what your doing - you should known better
- isto pensitaris.<br>
<br>
You have also libeled and slander Jeff Williams, Hugh Dierker, Karl Peter and
myself. I dismiss it as party games and i'm sure Hugh and Jeff can look after
themselves. But to liable and slander Karl Peters? Thats very impolitic of you.
Nes pas? Karl Peters sees you as a patron saint of the TLDA? According to them
- thats Bradley Thornton, Gene Marsh, and Richard Sexton you promised them
support to the TLDA if needed. I detect some non disclosed conflict of interest
in this libel and slander.<br>
<br>
But you don't know Karl. I can call Karl a fool - I know him well - but you
can't. Karl is not your intellectual equal nor superior by any stretch of the
imagination. I don't think there is any question of that. He is very much your
inferior. By pointing him out like you did in your capacity as an intellectual
elitist amounts to playing the bully. Thats not nice. The eltist intellectual
has caused an inferior pain. There is blood on your hands.<br>
<br>
You supposed to be helping Karl run the TLDA and fulfilling your promises. Not
libeling and slandering on of it's officers and directors. Maybe your forgetful
en mendacem memorem esse oporte.<br>
<br>
Your contributions just amount to troll feeding and the eletist intelectual
bullying of an unfortunate like Karl. How is Karl ever to get a job if someone
references that with your position.<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<div vlink=blue link=blue>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Trying reading more carefully next time.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
All I have to say to you and your conduct is da mihi sis bubulae frustrum
assae, solana tuberosa in modo gallico fricta, ac quassum lactatum coagulatum
crassum. That is tha appropriate position to take with you.<br>
<br>
kindest regards<br>
joe baptista<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div vlink=blue link=blue>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>--MM</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color'>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a href="http://publicroot.info"
target="_blank">publicroot.info</a>@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:publicroot.info@gmail.com" target="_blank">publicroot.info@gmail.com</a>]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Joe Baptista<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 14, 2009 8:41
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>;
Milton L Mueller<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Rui Correia <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Trying
to "fix" the list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Fri,
Aug 14, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Milton L Mueller <<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu"
target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div vlink=purple link=blue>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Rui makes a reasonable suggestion but I do not support
posting limits because the real problem is not the number of posts per person
but the quality and pertinence of the posts. e.g., </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Censorship.
That's the elitist intellectual in you advocating censorship. Should you not
instead be focusing your time on your inclusive GNSO project? Instead of
advocating censorship? <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Milton</st1:place></st1:City>.<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color'>
<div vlink=purple link=blue>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>if Parminder and Bill Drake are really going at it, I wouldn’t
mind seeing 10 each from both of them in one day. Any reasonable posting limit
– say, 5 per day – would still allow people who have nothing to say but plenty
of time, to waste our time and generate reactions from others. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>More
elitist intellectual censorship moralist mongering. <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Milton</st1:place></st1:City> - you are here to lead - not feed the
censorship trolls this nonsense.<br>
<br>
Now how is your little project going.? Where do I join?<br>
<br>
regards<br>
joe baptista<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color'>
<div vlink=purple link=blue>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color'>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Rui Correia [mailto:<a
href="mailto:correia.rui@gmail.com" target="_blank">correia.rui@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 14, 2009 5:49
AM</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>;
Jeanette Hofmann<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Trying
to "fix" the list</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Dear All<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
I am on a list on which they imposed a quota of daily posting by members - that
will at least address the issue of having some members commenting on every
single posting that others submit on a given issue. Anyone exceeding the quota
gets a warning and after that suspension for x amount of time. <br>
<br>
Obviously there should be exceptions for list admin/ event up-date
announcements etc by list administrators.<br>
<br>
And implement something like this is no more censorship than setting a time
limit during question time/ not allowing same person to make more than one
question during question time/ not accepting submission of more than x hundred
words. Time is valuable, we are all very busy and so it is only fair that we
allow as many people a voice in as short time as possible, taking into account
that we have to set aside time to read others' contributions.<br>
<br>
And unless we are voting, could we perhaps cut down on "yes, I
agree"/ "good point, Joe Soap" - unless Joe Soap's point
actually makes you change your mind, in which case you might want to retract/
amend your earlier position making it clear that that is what you are doing.
<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Rui<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>2009/8/14
Jeanette Hofmann <jeanette@wzb.eu><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hi all,<br>
<br>
I think it is a mistake to conflate the issue of discourse pollution with the
issue of decision making capacity.<br>
<br>
<br>
The strength of this list relies on its openness, which facilitates
contributions from IG participants and observers regardless of their membership
status. If we moved advocacy related discussions to more specific lists, the
general discussion list would most likely become irrelevant within a few
months. So, like Avri, I am very much against creating or moving the discussion
to new lists as a means of dealing with abuse.<br>
<br>
The creation of troll filters is a good interim solution but not sufficient to
protect the open space of this list. For example, filters don't prevent ad
hominem attacks.<br>
<br>
After having skimmed through the "unsubscribe" discussion of the last
10 days, I get the feeling that the lack of decision making capacity, which is
so typical for this list, applies also to the issue of trolls.<br>
<br>
My suggestion would be to ask the coordinators to come up with a few options
for action.<br>
One option, supported by Ginger and Parminder, is to move this discussion elsewhere.<br>
Another option would be to adjust our charter by adding a section on abuse.<br>
<br>
The following para of our charter, for example, could be expanded a bit to take
into account other forms of of discourse pollution:<br>
<br>
"Some of the specific guidelines that will be enforced include those
relating to:<br>
*No personal insults<br>
*No spam"<br>
<br>
The members of this list would have to agree on a general definition of abuse
and appropriate means of action against it.<br>
<br>
<br>
There might be other options. In any case, I would like to ask out coordinators
to apply some form of leadership to overcome the present impasse and help
restoring this discussion space.<br>
<font color="#888888"><span style='color:#888888'><br>
jeanette</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Rui Correia<br>
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Consultant<br>
2 Cutten St<br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Horison <br>
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Tel/ Fax (+27-11) 766-4336<br>
Mobile (+27) (0) 84-498-6838<br>
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áâãçéêíóôõúç<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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Representative & Accountable to the Internet community @large.</span><br>
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-- <br>
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<br>
<a href="http://www.publicroot.org">www.publicroot.org</a><br>
PublicRoot Consortium<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------<br>
The future of the Internet is Open, Transparent, Inclusive, Representative
& Accountable to the Internet community @large.<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Office: +1 (360) 526-6077 (extension 052)<br>
Fax: +1 (509) 479-0084<br>
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