[bestbits] [Ext] Re: OFF-TOPIC - Brazil: Return to Terror

Mon Oct 29 18:55:12 EDT 2018

Bruna wrote:
> I dont personally think that the problem with Bolsonaro is neoliberalism

I may have the wrong end of the stick but my understanding of Parminder's
theme was that he was saying the swing to the right - of which Bolsonaro is
a symptom -  is a reaction to neoliberalism, not neoliberal itself.

j

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 5:19 PM Bruna Martins dos Santos <
bruna.mrtns at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> Just my two cents here: I dont personally think that the problem with
> Bolsonaro is neoliberalism - If this was the problem I dont think
> brazilians would be utterly concerned with him. He can go from defending
> little or none regulation to the internet (like his campaign which
> circulated content criticizing the Marco Civil da internet) to denying that
> situations such as the Holocaust happened, and for such incoherence I dont
> think there is a word. I dont even dare call Bolsonaro a liberal because
> from the positions he openly takes he can easily be considered as a
> hard-right nationalist.
>
> Anyways, these ought to be hard times for us in Brazil and I think we
> should keep on advocating for our values and principles. Trying to find
> someone to put the blame here Isnt much of a way forward. We should be
> taking both the American and Brazilian elections vastly dominated by the
> spread of fake news as an example to think of solutions to the problem - if
> there's any.
>
> Best,
> Bruna Santos
>
> Em seg, 29 de out de 2018 às 09:34, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>
> escreveu:
>
>>
>> On 29/10/18 5:01 PM, farzaneh badii wrote:
>>
>> Very much agree Nigel.
>>
>> And using the political environment and this election which has made
>> people suffer just to repeat the old baseless argument that it was the
>> neoliberals fault is absolutely wrong in my opinion.
>>
>>
>> Interesting, very few people actually defend neo-liberalism, esp in
>> global civil society groups. But sure, you well may...
>>
>> Evidently, from Trump to Brexit to Bolsorno, and I am not mentioning a
>> few other names, very similar things are happening across the world....
>> Obviously that kind of seemingly unconnected very similar events need a
>> theory to explain. You dont agree with mine, so may I ask what is yours...
>> What do you think is happening? I do not think that a politically active
>> and mature CS group should just comment on such important events without
>> any analysis, much less 'what to do', at all.
>>
>> And to Nigel's comment below. "The spirit of the people of Brazil cannot
>> be eradicated by one man.". You really think Bolsorno is one man?
>>
>> parminder
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 12:28 AM Nigel Hickson <nigel.hickson at icann.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Good morning
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The spirit of the people of Brazil cannot be eradicated by one man.  Bad
>>> leaders come and (hopefully) go;
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nigel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *<bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net> on behalf of Carolina
>>> Rossini <carolina.rossini at gmail.com>
>>> *Reply-To: *Carolina Rossini <carolina.rossini at gmail.com>
>>> *Date: *Monday, 29 October 2018 at 06:15
>>> *To: *parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>
>>> *Cc: *"bestbits at lists.bestbits.net" <bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>
>>> *Subject: *[Ext] Re: [bestbits] OFF-TOPIC - Brazil: Return to Terror
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wow! I agree with Parminder! Ah!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 10:13 PM parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 29/10/18 3:47 AM, ian.peter at ianpeter.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Very sad that this has happened, Carlos. Lurches to the right seem
>>> commonplace these days.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brazil was a great leader as regards multistakeholder internet
>>> governance initiatives, and I do hope that all is not lost with this
>>> change. Certainly what has been achieved in the past sets a great example
>>> and part of history which I hope is not forgotten.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I dont want to make capital out of unfortunate times, but truth is as
>>> important to speak out at such times, if we are not just to make pro forma
>>> regrets but to look ahead with vision and purpose, and thus any real
>>> hope....
>>>
>>> Dear Ian, do you really think that a multistakeholder model which
>>> culminated in trying to install a World Economic Forum based global
>>> Internet Governance regime instead of a UN based one was itself not a lurch
>>> to right? That is also history that must not be forgotten, and released
>>> from its responsibilities.
>>>
>>> The current Trumpian phenomenon is precisely the product of a
>>> trans-national elite seeking their common economic advantages often using
>>> the cover of social liberalism without economic egalitarianism -- where
>>> market without political governance was to be the defender of rights! This
>>> is a direct result of promotion of an one-sided talk of human rights --
>>> only civil and political ones and not social and economic ones, which have
>>> openly been flouted even ridiculed on , yes, IG civil society lists.... Dot
>>> ask me for real examples, bec I have followed this and I know many.... Ok,
>>> take two, the very concept and not just the real implementation of 'public
>>> interest' has been ridiculed on the NCUC (of ICANN's)website, to which many
>>> CS stalwarts of IG belong. A key leader of CS community has said 'social
>>> justice' is a meaningless concept, another that the term 'democracy carries
>>> baggage', and when appeals (like at UNESCO's key Paris meeting on IG) were
>>> circulated to simply ensure that social and economic rights get mentioned
>>> along with civil and public rights in the conf document there wasnt much
>>> sympathy on these lists.. And yes, also when all progressive civil society
>>> is fighting for a binding treaty on human rights abuses by corporations,
>>> key leaders write here why any such thing is a bad idea .... .I can go on
>>> and on ...
>>>
>>> And so lets not assume innocence about this creeping death of
>>> progressive and democratic ideals that the global trans-national elite has
>>> brought on us in blind pursuit of their global economic interests (Zizek's
>>> 'Clinton not Trump is the problem' precisely captures it).
>>>
>>> This is the dispossessed reacting against the global neoliberal excesses
>>> in the only ways they could think of, or were made available to them,
>>> however deleterious the results are finally going to be for them. But lets
>>> not look away from what or who is responsible here.....
>>>
>>> When we seethe  market, the embodiment of un-restrained self-interest,
>>> as the institution that will govern us in all areas (which is the
>>> definition of neoliberalism) including of rights, welfare, etc, then one
>>> can very well expect a Trump and a Bolsanaro to come along and say, well
>>> self-interest, fine, this is what it politically is, everyone fending for
>>> oneself and one's narrow interests, and avowedly and unabashedly so ...
>>> Trump and Bolsorno are the other side of the same trans-national
>>> neo-liberalism of which Internet governance space has been a key, often
>>> pioneering arena. It is a local, political response of the justifiably
>>> angry and dispossessed, even if a suicidal one... T and B are simply
>>> neoliberalism's narrow profession of unbridled self-interest without the
>>> spin and false sophisticated sheen that is just there to reflect away
>>> deserved criticism -- it is the proverbial chickens coming home to roost.
>>>
>>> With hope and solidarity
>>>
>>> parminder
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>
>>> From: "Carlos Afonso" <ca at cafonso.ca>
>>>
>>> To: "BestBits List" <bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>
>>>
>>> Sent: 28/10/2018 1:29:02 AM
>>>
>>> Subject: [bestbits] OFF-TOPIC - Brazil: Return to Terror
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear colleagues, this article may give you an idea of what might happen
>>>
>>> in Brazil with the presidential elections tomorrow.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry for this, but the situation may be terrifying for anyone who
>>>
>>> opposes the ultra-right-wing candidate. The article by Pablo Villaça (in
>>>
>>> English) is an accurate review:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.rogerebert.com/far-flung-correspondents/brazilian-election-2018-bolsonaro
>>> [rogerebert.com]
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.rogerebert.com_far-2Dflung-2Dcorrespondents_brazilian-2Delection-2D2018-2Dbolsonaro&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=cqhruVEaSZ2dxhFez02DlPN_zLCuNED-Ue1ZK4F0bZQ&s=_sE7gIYMTB6OB6pp0JT6cAgKUXDv4MOPKILUBlNWJy8&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The article is also attached in PDF.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bolsonaro threatens to liquidate all NGOs and social movements -- who
>>>
>>> can choose between prison and exile. Fundamental achievements like our
>>>
>>> multistakeholder Internet governance system, our Internet Bill of
>>>
>>> Rights, and many other human rights-related laws are at risk.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> fraternal regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --c.a.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carlos A. Afonso
>>>
>>> [emails são pessoais exceto quando explicitamente indicado em contrário]
>>>
>>> [emails are personal unless explicitly indicated otherwise]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Instituto Nupef - https://nupef.org.br [nupef.org.br]
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nupef.org.br&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=cqhruVEaSZ2dxhFez02DlPN_zLCuNED-Ue1ZK4F0bZQ&s=hu579RfBWKMId3XJDtOT_CljtdARoy-LaPMn_PFT7T0&e=>
>>>
>>> ISOC-BR - https://isoc.org.br [isoc.org.br]
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__isoc.org.br&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=cqhruVEaSZ2dxhFez02DlPN_zLCuNED-Ue1ZK4F0bZQ&s=5haou0MZpB4i6bua90CKW8LXu2UmnuY_ruMFHFkq9eI&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>
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>>>      http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits [lists.bestbits.net] <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.bestbits.net_wws_info_bestbits&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=cqhruVEaSZ2dxhFez02DlPN_zLCuNED-Ue1ZK4F0bZQ&s=mU_J_-vpj2wDSpQr4qgNdhXTPsbnaXD9-mpilSSTEUE&e=>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
>>>      http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits [lists.bestbits.net]
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.bestbits.net_wws_info_bestbits&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=cqhruVEaSZ2dxhFez02DlPN_zLCuNED-Ue1ZK4F0bZQ&s=mU_J_-vpj2wDSpQr4qgNdhXTPsbnaXD9-mpilSSTEUE&e=>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Carolina Rossini *
>>>
>>> + 1 (617) 697 9389 | skype: carolrossini | @carolinarossini
>>>
>>> PGP ID:  0xEC81015C
>>>
>> --
>> Farzaneh
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>
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>
>
>
> --
> *Bruna Martins dos Santos *
>
> Skype ID: bruna.martinsantos
> @boomartins
> ____________________________________________________________
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