<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Bruna wrote:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">> I dont personally think that the problem with Bolsonaro is neoliberalism</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I may have the wrong end of the stick but my understanding of Parminder's theme was that he was saying the swing to the right - of which Bolsonaro is a symptom - is a reaction to neoliberalism, not neoliberal itself.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">j</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 5:19 PM Bruna Martins dos Santos <<a href="mailto:bruna.mrtns@gmail.com">bruna.mrtns@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hey all, <div><br></div><div>Just my two cents here: I dont personally think that the problem with Bolsonaro is neoliberalism - If this was the problem I dont think brazilians would be utterly concerned with him. He can go from defending little or none regulation to the internet (like his campaign which circulated content criticizing the Marco Civil da internet) to denying that situations such as the Holocaust happened, and for such incoherence I dont think there is a word. I dont even dare call Bolsonaro a liberal because from the positions he openly takes he can easily be considered as a hard-right nationalist.</div><div><br></div><div>Anyways, these ought to be hard times for us in Brazil and I think we should keep on advocating for our values and principles. Trying to find someone to put the blame here Isnt much of a way forward. We should be taking both the American and Brazilian elections vastly dominated by the spread of fake news as an example to think of solutions to the problem - if there's any. </div><div><br></div><div>Best, <br>Bruna Santos </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">Em seg, 29 de out de 2018 às 09:34, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> escreveu:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="m_8727998339063408770m_-4258208740295393662moz-cite-prefix">On 29/10/18 5:01 PM, farzaneh badii
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="auto">Very much agree Nigel. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">And using the political environment and this
election which has made people suffer just to repeat the old
baseless argument that it was the neoliberals fault is
absolutely wrong in my opinion. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Interesting, very few people actually defend neo-liberalism, esp
in global civil society groups. But sure, you well may... <br>
</p>
<p> Evidently, from Trump to Brexit to Bolsorno, and I am not
mentioning a few other names, very similar things are happening
across the world.... Obviously that kind of seemingly unconnected
very similar events need a theory to explain. You dont agree with
mine, so may I ask what is yours... What do you think is
happening? I do not think that a politically active and mature CS
group should just comment on such important events without any
analysis, much less 'what to do', at all. <br>
</p>
<p>And to Nigel's comment below. "<span>The spirit of the people of
Brazil cannot be eradicated by one man.". You really think
Bolsorno is one man?</span></p>
<p><span>parminder <br>
</span> </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 12:28 AM Nigel Hickson
<<a href="mailto:nigel.hickson@icann.org" target="_blank">nigel.hickson@icann.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-GB">
<div class="m_8727998339063408770m_-4258208740295393662m_19142132447316494WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Good morning </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The spirit of the people of
Brazil cannot be eradicated by one man. Bad leaders
come and (hopefully) go; </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Best</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Nigel </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><<a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>>
on behalf of Carolina Rossini <<a href="mailto:carolina.rossini@gmail.com" target="_blank">carolina.rossini@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>Carolina Rossini <<a href="mailto:carolina.rossini@gmail.com" target="_blank">carolina.rossini@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, 29 October 2018 at 06:15<br>
<b>To: </b>parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>"
<<a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Ext] Re: [bestbits] OFF-TOPIC -
Brazil: Return to Terror</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wow! I agree with Parminder!
Ah!</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 10:13
PM parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 29/10/18 3:47 AM, <a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Very sad that this has
happened, Carlos. Lurches to the right
seem commonplace these days. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brazil was a great
leader as regards multistakeholder
internet governance initiatives, and I do
hope that all is not lost with this
change. Certainly what has been achieved
in the past sets a great example and part
of history which I hope is not forgotten.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ian</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I dont want to make capital out of
unfortunate times, but truth is as important
to speak out at such times, if we are not just
to make pro forma regrets but to look ahead
with vision and purpose, and thus any real
hope....</p>
<p>Dear Ian, do you really think that a
multistakeholder model which culminated in
trying to install a World Economic Forum based
global Internet Governance regime instead of a
UN based one was itself not a lurch to right?
That is also history that must not be
forgotten, and released from its
responsibilities.</p>
<p>The current Trumpian phenomenon is precisely
the product of a trans-national elite seeking
their common economic advantages often using
the cover of social liberalism without
economic egalitarianism -- where market
without political governance was to be the
defender of rights! This is a direct result of
promotion of an one-sided talk of human rights
-- only civil and political ones and not
social and economic ones, which have openly
been flouted even ridiculed on , yes, IG civil
society lists.... Dot ask me for real
examples, bec I have followed this and I know
many.... Ok, take two, the very concept and
not just the real implementation of 'public
interest' has been ridiculed on the NCUC (of
ICANN's)website, to which many CS stalwarts of
IG belong. A key leader of CS community has
said 'social justice' is a meaningless
concept, another that the term 'democracy
carries baggage', and when appeals (like at
UNESCO's key Paris meeting on IG) were
circulated to simply ensure that social and
economic rights get mentioned along with civil
and public rights in the conf document there
wasnt much sympathy on these lists.. And yes,
also when all progressive civil society is
fighting for a binding treaty on human rights
abuses by corporations, key leaders write here
why any such thing is a bad idea .... .I can
go on and on ...</p>
<p>And so lets not assume innocence about this
creeping death of progressive and democratic
ideals that the global trans-national elite
has brought on us in blind pursuit of their
global economic interests (Zizek's 'Clinton
not Trump is the problem' precisely captures
it). </p>
<p>This is the dispossessed reacting against the
global neoliberal excesses in the only ways
they could think of, or were made available to
them, however deleterious the results are
finally going to be for them. But lets not
look away from what or who is responsible
here.....</p>
<p>When we seethe market, the embodiment of
un-restrained self-interest, as the
institution that will govern us in all areas
(which is the definition of neoliberalism)
including of rights, welfare, etc, then one
can very well expect a Trump and a Bolsanaro
to come along and say, well self-interest,
fine, this is what it politically is, everyone
fending for oneself and one's narrow
interests, and avowedly and unabashedly so
... Trump and Bolsorno are the other side of
the same trans-national neo-liberalism of
which Internet governance space has been a
key, often pioneering arena. It is a local,
political response of the justifiably angry
and dispossessed, even if a suicidal one... T
and B are simply neoliberalism's narrow
profession of unbridled self-interest without
the spin and false sophisticated sheen that is
just there to reflect away deserved criticism
-- it is the proverbial chickens coming home
to roost. </p>
<p>With hope and solidarity</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>parminder </p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">------ Original Message
------</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">From: "Carlos Afonso"
<<a href="mailto:ca@cafonso.ca" target="_blank">ca@cafonso.ca</a>></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To: "BestBits List"
<<a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent: 28/10/2018
1:29:02 AM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Subject: [bestbits]
OFF-TOPIC - Brazil: Return to Terror</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="m_8727998339063408770m_-4258208740295393662m_19142132447316494m_5884133044364644117xb71ef0e52fa84e5">
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Dear colleagues,
this article may give you an idea of
what might happen</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>in Brazil with the
presidential elections tomorrow.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Sorry for this, but
the situation may be terrifying for
anyone who</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>opposes the
ultra-right-wing candidate. The
article by Pablo Villaça (in</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>English) is an
accurate review:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.rogerebert.com_far-2Dflung-2Dcorrespondents_brazilian-2Delection-2D2018-2Dbolsonaro&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=cqhruVEaSZ2dxhFez02DlPN_zLCuNED-Ue1ZK4F0bZQ&s=_sE7gIYMTB6OB6pp0JT6cAgKUXDv4MOPKILUBlNWJy8&e=" target="_blank">https://www.rogerebert.com/far-flung-correspondents/brazilian-election-2018-bolsonaro
[rogerebert.com]</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The article is also
attached in PDF.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Bolsonaro threatens
to liquidate all NGOs and social
movements -- who</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>can choose between
prison and exile. Fundamental
achievements like our</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>multistakeholder
Internet governance system, our
Internet Bill of</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Rights, and many
other human rights-related laws are
at risk.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>fraternal regards</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>--c.a.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>--</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Carlos A. Afonso</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>[emails são
pessoais exceto quando
explicitamente indicado em
contrário]</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>[emails are
personal unless explicitly indicated
otherwise]</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Instituto Nupef - <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nupef.org.br&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=cqhruVEaSZ2dxhFez02DlPN_zLCuNED-Ue1ZK4F0bZQ&s=hu579RfBWKMId3XJDtOT_CljtdARoy-LaPMn_PFT7T0&e=" target="_blank">https://nupef.org.br
[nupef.org.br]</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>ISOC-BR - <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__isoc.org.br&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=RrrXyaBfa00GH1liTedM3FwobVakuhJ-qs1N8-Ji8VE&m=cqhruVEaSZ2dxhFez02DlPN_zLCuNED-Ue1ZK4F0bZQ&s=5haou0MZpB4i6bua90CKW8LXu2UmnuY_ruMFHFkq9eI&e=" target="_blank">https://isoc.org.br
[isoc.org.br]</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Carolina
Rossini </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">+
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#666666">PGP
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="m_8727998339063408770m_-4258208740295393662gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif">Farzaneh </font></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_8727998339063408770m_-4258208740295393662mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="m_8727998339063408770m_-4258208740295393662moz-quote-pre">____________________________________________________________
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