CS consensual statement on MSism WAS Re: [governance] Vint Verf tells us the conclusion of the complex IANA transition process

Sun Jul 27 11:26:20 EDT 2014

A very good reminder, Norbert !

I remember, during phase 1 of WSIS Adama Samassekou claiming that the CS Declaration will be an "official WSIS document" (= "equal footing") despite the "clash" of CS having taken the desision to carry out its own declaration.

But in fact you'll not find the CS Declaration among official WSIS outcome documents on any ITU WSIS Site.

Jean-Louis Fullsack

> Message du 27/07/14 17:11
> De : "Norbert Bollow" 
> A : governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> Copie à : 
> Objet : Re: CS consensual statement on MSism WAS Re: [governance] Vint Verf tells us the conclusion of the complex IANA transition process
> 
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 07:44:26 -0700
> "michael gurstein"  wrote:
> 
> > In other words "equal footing for foxes and hens", sounds pretty good
> > in theory, in practice not so good (for the hens... exceptionally
> > good for the foxes...
> 
> Equal footing means that the hens must not use their wings to try to
> escape?
> 
> SCNR (=Sorry, could not resist.)
> 
> On a more serious note, how should the following be classified?
> 
> During the drafting process for the Paris WSIS+10 outcome document, the
> UNESCO guy running the process essentially simply turned deaf ears to
> the proposal to include a reference to the civil society WSIS
> declaration alongside the governmental one.
> 
> Is that an example of lack of equal footing? Or lack of equal feet
> within an equal footing context?
> 
> Some precise definitions would be important here I think.
> 
> Greetings,
> Norbert
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> > [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of parminder
> > Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2014 6:48 AM To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> > Subject: Re: CS consensual statement on MSism WAS Re: [governance]
> > Vint Verf tells us the conclusion of the complex IANA transition
> > process
> > 
> > 
> > Indeed the term 'equal footing' merits some attention and analysis,
> > as the NetMundial outcome document exhorts us to do.
> > 
> > The problem of course is not with the term 'equal footing' itself,
> > but we need to look closely at 'equal footing for whom' - something
> > which this email will try to do
> > 
> > Democracy's basic idea is of equality of all people, or, in other
> > worlds, all people on equal footing. There is simply no democracy
> > without that.
> > 
> > Are we calling for equal footing for all people here? Or, since
> > people live and see themselves socially as belonging in various
> > social groups, an equal footing of social groups of people?
> > ( geographic groups like neighbourhoods, villages, towns and nations,
> > or identity based ones - which may or may not overlap with geo-based
> > - like gender, ethnicity, class, etc).
> > 
> > No, MS-ism does not call for equal footing for people or for social
> > groups of people? It calls for equal footing for stakeholders?
> > 
> > There would be no problem if stakeholders were just like natural
> > social groups of natural people. But that is not the fact. And to the
> > extent that stakeholders, as seen by MSism we find in practice, are
> > *not* just natural groups of natural people, the equal footing of
> > stakeholders rather than being equal footing of people and their
> > natural groups, militates against it. It is in this way that
> > equal-footing MSism subverts democracy, that ideology and practice of
> > equal footing of all people...
> > 
> > Where does the term stakeholder deviate from people or their natural
> > groups? It is easy to see - when the (big) capital owner and the
> > (privileged) expert is brought it as special political invitees, or
> > in fact political overlords. Both the epithets, 'big' and
> > 'privileged', fully apply and are basic to this analysis.
> > 
> > Mark it, the (big) capital owner - hereon, simply business, , and the
> > (privileged) expert - hereon, simply the tech community - come in a
> > second role, for a second political dip, apart from in any case being
> > people (the few that they are) in normal people's political
> > configurations, either as civil society or as represented by
> > democratic governments. In this second role, they claim special
> > characteristics whereby they should be given extra political power -
> > respectively, owning productive resources, and possessing special
> > knowledge (another productive resource in fact). In various MS
> > meetings, these two groups openly quote these special characteristics
> > for claiming extra, second dip, political power, through an extra
> > seat at the policy table.
> > 
> > Now not only is the 'big business' and 'the special expert' coming in
> > for the second time to partake political power whereby some people
> > will have twice the political role and power as others, it is much
> > much more pernicious. The extremely few - in fact minuscule - number
> > of big business and special expert claim the same amount of political
> > space in MSism as the whole of civil society and the whole of
> > (however imperfect) government-as-people's-representative group. The
> > proportion on two sides reminds one of the 1 percent and 99 percent
> > equation of the occupy movement. Well, MSism is your reverse occupy
> > movement, where the big business is trying to occupy the democracy
> > space, but lets not digress....
> > 
> > One cannot separate nice theoretical sentences about MSism from its
> > actual practice - which, as we have seen till now, is strictly based
> > on four way equal division of political space among very unequal
> > actors - business, tech community, gov and civil society.
> > 
> > It is evident that in the name of equal footing of stakeholders, what
> > is being done is that the equal footing among people, and their
> > natural groups, is being completely upstaged. That is how and where
> > MSism upstages democracy, and all real conceptions of equality....
> > 
> > You want equality of 'real stakeholders', call the next NetMundial
> > and the next IGF MAG with say, and I am trying to be very
> > conservative here, 10 stakeholder groups, *on an equal footing*. Give
> > one place each to global reps of women's groups, ethnic minorities,
> > disabled community, trade unions, slum residents associations,
> > farmers groups ..... we can make 8 stakeholder categories like this.
> > We will then leave one for business associations - to be filled in
> > equally by big business reps and reps of small businesses. We can
> > have, if you will, another single category of experts with half of
> > them technical experts and half relevant social experts.
> > 
> > This will be much closer to equal footing of stakeholders as
> > promoting rather than upstaging the democratic ideal of equal footing
> > of all people and their natural groups. Any takes for this model of
> > MSism..
> > 
> > 
> > parminder
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sunday 27 July 2014 06:02 PM, Avri Doria wrote:
> > >
> > > On 27-Jul-14 11:41, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
> > >> somehow remain very uncomfortable with the term equal footing. EF 
> > >> will never give balance in MSism and decision making situations. 
> > >> Anyways, so much has been said on this but it still remains
> > >> politically incorrect.
> > >
> > > I tend to disagree. For me it is a critical phrase in the
> > > definition for the very reason that I beleive it has been
> > > misappropriated by a few governments and misunderstood by many. It
> > > is such a simple term, with a simple metaphoric meaning, that I do
> > > intend to keep on using it. And I think that many different groups
> > > can be on an equal footing with each other at the same time. For
> > > example, we could have a global multistakeholder event like the
> > > NETmundial were everyone is on equal footing. Yet, when the
> > > governments went off amongst themselves to discuss things, they
> > > were also on an equal footing, as were the CS folk when they went
> > > off to talk among themselves. To my mind there is no dialogue
> > > without equal footing, it becomes more command/supplicant exchange
> > > without equal footing.
> > >
> > > I personally think that the more decisions that are actually made
> > > on an equal footing the better. But the realist in me realizes
> > > that we aren't there yet, just like we probably won't reach global
> > > direct democracy in my lifetime. That is why I indicate that in
> > > those cases, where the final decision making is not done on a equal
> > > footing, it "may be assigned to a single stakeholder group" and
> > > that "these decision makers are always accountable to all of the
> > > stakeholders for their decisions and the implementations."
> > > Implementation is rarely multistakeholder.
> > >
> > > The assigned decision makers for some things may be governments, we 
> > > obviously have different viewpoints on the utility of governments
> > > in various situations, but I think the definition should be neutral
> > > as to particular cases The decsions maker may also be the IESG,
> > > when talking about an IP protocol, the ICANN Board when talking
> > > about a gTLD policy or the coder when talking about a new bit of
> > > system architecture design in a multistakeholder committee, etc. Or
> > > WIPO on property, or the ITU on telephone numbers. The point is
> > > that as much as possible the discussion leading up to the actual
> > > decisions, including the recommendation of solutions, it should be
> > > multistakeholder. And in as many cases as possible we should aim
> > > for equal footing even at the decision level.
> > >
> > > As I said I tried to make the definition I use to explain it to
> > > people neutral in that respect. I find it works well for me both
> > > in explaining things, in studying things and in modeling various
> > > real life scenarios and in tactical thinking for advocacy.
> > >
> > > Your mileage may vary.
> > >
> > > avri
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
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