[governance] Civil Society (was Re: caucus contribution, consultation and MAG meeting)

Sat Feb 16 22:13:19 EST 2013

That term progressive, in the 'right' hands seems to produce, as 
parminder himself says, a distrust of multistakeholder processes, and I 
personally can't think of anything more regressive.

So please, I know where the term originally came from, but avoiding 
repurposing a much older English word to mean something entirely 
different would be a very good thing indeed.

Has it ever been considered that the opposition to this brand of 
politics (a focus on control of words, terms and if possible governance 
structures) as opposed to policy, comes more from people who work on 
the ground, hands on, in multistakeholder groups on whatever cause?

In such a case, it may then be quite arguable which side is actually 
representing public interest, or whether there can be one true 
perception of such interest on more nuanced topics. So, that test fails 
if you try to seek positive proof, rather than 'negative'

--srs (htc one x)

On 17 February 2013 12:23:56 AM "Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch" 
<apisan at unam.mx> wrote:
> carry on! slice and dice until you're alone! you'll be at the top of 
> the hill. Much of a top but not much of a hill.
>
> leave any claim to diversity and any chance for tech-knowledge based 
> input by the wayside.
>
> What a waste of Roland's, Suresh's and McTim's good will, honesty and 
> energy expense.
>
> Yours,
>
> Alejandro Pisanty
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> Facultad de Química UNAM
> Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>
>
>
> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
>
> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475
> Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, 
> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>
> ________________________________
> Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org 
> [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de parminder 
> [parminder at itforchange.net]
> Enviado el: sábado, 16 de febrero de 2013 02:52
> Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> Asunto: Re: [governance] Civil Society (was Re: caucus contribution, 
> consultation and MAG meeting)
>
>
> On Thursday 14 February 2013 01:26 PM, Roland Perry wrote:
> <snip)
> And that sounds like it includes my recent activity, which has been 
> working with interest-based charities, volunteers etc who have a focus 
> on one particular aspect of social justice, human rights and the rule 
> of law: Prevention of violence against women - in particular those who 
> are tracked and harassed via their Internet footprint (commonly on 
> social networking sites).
>
> However, I'm also aware that in order to achieve the goal of protecting 
> women, some people might characterise the techniques involved as forms 
> of selective censorship and attempts to strip away anonymity (in both 
> cases with respect to their attackers).
>
> So not every part of Civil Society necessarily has the same view on 
> core issues such as these.
>
> No, congruity of views in not the test. Working for public interest is. 
> Although there can be different and contested notions of public 
> interest - and that space of contestation, negotiation and possible 
> resolution/ harmonisation is called politics, (No, Suresh, politics is 
> not what you think it is. It is a good word, although it, like almost 
> anything else - markets for instance, can involve bad/ manipulative 
> practises as well as outcomes.)
>
> There is ages old distinction between public interest and private 
> interest, including organised private interests, and this distinction 
> holds now as ever. Any non-governmental body involved in public 
> interest issues/ advocacy is a civil society organisation. In fact I 
> will accept a definition broader than the one used by Council of Europe 
> and quoted by Norbert. I will include organisation that dont believe in 
> the concept of 'social justice', may in fact decry this concept as 
> dangerous to people's liberties, (there are so many of them, esp in the 
> US - BTW, Milton has said on this list that there is no thing like 
> social justice) as long as such organisations truly believe that they 
> are working in the larger public interest, and not narrow private 
> interests of defined parties. (No, working, say, on disability rights 
> cannot be called as working for private interests of defined parties. 
> It is public interest work, and 'disabled people' are here to be 
> considered as a distinct 'public group' and not a private group. Dont 
> have space or time to argue the basis of this distinction any further here.)
>
> These distinctions are hallowed norms of democratic public life for 
> decades now, if not centuries.... The extent of anti-democratic thought 
> that has permeated into many people's conception of what is presented 
> as a new political model of multistakeholderism is the reason that many 
> progressive groups have begun to look at (such conceptions of) 
> multistakeholderism itself with suspicion. It is this kind of normative 
> loose-ness - that works for the interests of the more powerful rather 
> than the less powerful, for whom democracy is supposed to work) - that 
> is multistakeholderism's biggest enemy.
>
>
> The normative basis and boundaries of and within multistakeholderism, 
> and its relationship with democracy, have to saved, as well as 
> expounded very clearly, for  it to be seriously considered as a form / 
> system of participatory democracy. (If that is what MSism really is in 
> the minds of its proponents.)
>
> In the end, when such discussions as this one takes place, I can hardly 
> ever stop myself from re(quoting) the father of free market thinking, 
> Adam Smith, who said...
>
>
> "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and 
> diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the 
> public, or in some contrivance to raise prices…. But though the law 
> cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling 
> together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies, much 
> less to render them necessary. "
>
>
> "To widen the market and to narrow the competition, is always the 
> interest of the dealers…The proposal of any new law or regulation of 
> commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to 
> with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having 
> been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, 
> but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, 
> whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who 
> have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public, and 
> who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it."
>
>
> What a profanity it is to utter something like this in any 
> multistakeholder environment... nay, it now seems it may be 
> inadmissible even within a IG related CS group.... Adam Smith I 
> understand may have been unceremoniously evicted from such spaces. Poor 
> guy - and he thought he was trying to make (or mark) market thinking 
> and economic-logic as a/ the premier force in our social systems.
>
> parminder
>
>
>
>
>
>
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