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<p>That term progressive, in the 'right' hands seems to
produce, as parminder himself says, a distrust of multistakeholder
processes, and I personally can't think of anything more regressive. <br>
<br>
So please, I know where the term originally came from, but avoiding
repurposing a much older English word to mean something entirely
different would be a very good thing indeed. <br>
<br>
Has it ever been considered that the opposition to this brand of
politics (a focus on control of words, terms and if possible governance
structures) as opposed to policy, comes more from people who work on
the ground, hands on, in multistakeholder groups on whatever cause? <br>
<br>
In such a case, it may then be quite arguable which side is actually
representing public interest, or whether there can be one true
perception of such interest on more nuanced topics. So, that test fails
if you try to seek positive proof, rather than 'negative' <br>
<br>
--srs (htc one x)<br>
</p>
<br><p>
<p>On 17 February 2013 12:23:56 AM "Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch"
<apisan@unam.mx> wrote:</p>
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carry on! slice and dice until you're alone! you'll be at the top of
the hill. Much of a top but not much of a hill.
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<div>leave any claim to diversity and any chance for tech-knowledge
based input by the wayside. </div>
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<div>What a waste of Roland's, Suresh's and McTim's good will, honesty
and energy expense. </div>
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<div>Yours,</div>
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</div>
<div>Alejandro Pisanty</div>
<div> </div>
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- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <br>
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>
Facultad de Química UNAM </font></span></span></div>
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Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico</font></span></span></div>
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FROM ABROAD </font></span></span></p>
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Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com<br>
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---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org<br>
. . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . </font></p>
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<div id="divRpF858000" style="direction: ltr;"><font face="Tahoma"
size="2" color="#000000"><b>Desde:</b>
governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org
[governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de parminder
[parminder@itforchange.net]<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> sábado, 16 de febrero de 2013 02:52<br>
<b>Hasta:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org<br>
<b>Asunto:</b> Re: [governance] Civil Society (was Re: caucus
contribution, consultation and MAG meeting)<br>
</font><br>
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<div></div>
<div><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 14 February 2013 01:26 PM,
Roland Perry wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"><snip)<br>
And that sounds like it includes my recent activity, which has been
working with interest-based charities, volunteers etc who have a focus
on one particular aspect of social justice, human rights and the rule
of law: Prevention of violence against women - in
particular those who are tracked and harassed via their Internet
footprint (commonly on social networking sites).
<br>
<br>
However, I'm also aware that in order to achieve the goal of protecting
women, some people might characterise the techniques involved as forms
of selective censorship and attempts to strip away anonymity (in both
cases with respect to their attackers).
<br>
<br>
So not every part of Civil Society necessarily has the same view on
core issues such as these.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
No, congruity of views in not the test. Working for public interest is.
Although there can be different and contested notions of public
interest - and that space of contestation, negotiation and possible
resolution/ harmonisation is called politics, (No, Suresh,
politics is not what you think it is. It is a good word, although it,
like almost anything else - markets for instance, can involve bad/
manipulative practises as well as outcomes.)<br>
<br>
There is ages old distinction between public interest and private
interest, including organised private interests, and this distinction
holds now as ever. Any non-governmental body involved in public
interest issues/ advocacy is a civil society organisation.
In fact I will accept a definition broader than the one used by
Council of Europe and quoted by Norbert. I will include organisation
that dont believe in the concept of 'social justice', may in fact decry
this concept as dangerous to people's liberties, (there
are so many of them, esp in the US - BTW, Milton has said on this list
that there is no thing like social justice) as long as such
organisations truly believe that they are working in the larger public
interest, and not narrow private interests of defined
parties. (No, working, say, on disability rights cannot be called as
working for private interests of defined parties. It is public interest
work, and 'disabled people' are here to be considered as a distinct
'public group' and not a private group. Dont have
space or time to argue the basis of this distinction any further here.)<br>
<br>
These distinctions are hallowed norms of democratic public life for
decades now, if not centuries.... The extent of anti-democratic thought
that has permeated into many people's conception of what is presented
as a new political model of multistakeholderism
is the reason that many progressive groups have begun to look at (such
conceptions of) multistakeholderism itself with suspicion. It is this
kind of normative loose-ness - that works for the interests of the more
powerful rather than the less powerful, for
whom democracy is supposed to work) - that is multistakeholderism's
biggest enemy.
<br>
<br>
<br>
The normative basis and boundaries of and within multistakeholderism,
and its relationship with democracy, have to saved, as well as
expounded very clearly, for it to be seriously considered as a
form / system of participatory democracy. (If that is what MSism
really is in the minds of its proponents.)<br>
<br>
In the end, when such discussions as this one takes place, I can hardly
ever stop myself from re(quoting) the father of free market thinking,
Adam Smith, who said...<br>
<br>
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm"><font size="4">"People of the same
trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the
conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some
contrivance to raise prices…. But though the law cannot hinder
people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought
to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies, much less to render them
necessary. "</font><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm"><font size="4">"To widen the market
and to narrow the competition, is always the interest of the
dealers…The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which
comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great
precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long
and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the
most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose
interest is never exactly the same with that of the
public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the
public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived
and oppressed it."</font></p>
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What a profanity it is to utter something like this in any
multistakeholder environment... nay, it now seems it may be
inadmissible even within a IG related CS group.... Adam Smith I
understand may have been unceremoniously evicted from such spaces. Poor guy
- and he thought he was trying to make (or mark) market thinking and
economic-logic as a/ the premier force in our social systems.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
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