[governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead

Diego Rafael Canabarro diegocanabarro at gmail.com
Thu Aug 29 18:00:29 EDT 2013 

Exactly, Norbert.

*MM: I would have to reject the way you presume that the society = the
state.
*

When I said state (and their societies) there was no assumption (nor any
equation) that those societies can only speak through the voice of the
State.

*MM: I also would have to question your assumption that "asymmetries" (not
entirely clear what you mean by this, but I assume you mean inequalities)
are overcome or mitigated via the existence of states.
*
Again, no assumption. Asymmetries (inequalities being just a form of them)
are generally overcome by public policy (foreign policy, be it autocratic
or multistakeholder or whatever). Which tends to be fragmented and very
conflictive according to several factors (power struggles, social and
economic injustices, etc., etc. etc., which tend to divide social actors
according to many other different lines).  Which leads us to the point of
agreement: tough stuff to overcome. But once again: no sort of assumption
here. Only a bit of skepticism related to the idea of giving social justice
a secondary place.

Best wishes
Diego

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu> wrote:

>  I would have to reject the way you presume that the society = the state.
> That is the whole point of my argument - they are not the same, _*
> especially*_ in cyberspace.****
>
> I also would have to question your assumption that "asymmetries" (not
> entirely clear what you mean by this, but I assume you mean inequalities)
> are overcome or mitigated via the existence of states.  Wow, what an
> assumption. So in the world of states, there is no asymmetry between USA
> and Uruguay, or between China and Laos. Hmmmm.****
>
> ** **
>
> But of course, such problems are not easy to overcome. No one said they
> were. ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Diego Rafael Canabarro [mailto:diegocanabarro at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 29, 2013 4:56 PM
> *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Ian Peter
> *Cc:* Milton L Mueller; Adam Peake
> *Subject:* Re: [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is
> dead****
>
> ** **
>
> The "denationalized model" proposed in Networks and States intentionally
> puts asymmetries aside. And for the larger part of those 190 or so states
> (and their societies), asymmetries (especially socioeconomic ones) are high
> priority in their international affairs. It doesn't seem to be something
> easy to overcome, does it?****
>
> ** **
>
> Regards****
>
> Diego  ****
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:
> ****
>
> Well stated Milton!****
>
>  ****
>
> “The choice is not "the multistakeholder model" vs. the ITU. It is the
> denationalization of Internet governance vs. the international anarchy of
> governance by 190 nation-states.”****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu> ****
>
> *Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2013 6:15 AM****
>
> *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org ; 'Adam Peake' <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> ****
>
> *Subject:* RE: [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is
> dead****
>
>  ****
>
> One of many expressions of (justified) concern at the implications of the
> NSA revelations, particularly when everyone was so paranoid about how a
> mere mention of unsolicited bulk email in the ITRs would have (allegedly)
> cleared the way for systematic surveillance. Well, it turns out systematic
> surveillance was already happening… And this was quite predictable. We need
> to take more seriously now the 'realist' argument I have been advancing
> regarding the role of states in Internet governance: ****
>
>  ****
>
> The biggest threats to Internet freedom today do not come from
> intergovernmental organizations. They come from national governments with
> the institutional mechanisms to regulate, restrict, surveil, censor and
> license Internet suppliers and users. National governments have police
> forces, armies - and armies of regulators. This includes, especially, our
> own government, which has greater global reach than any other state. (from
> http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/Greatest-threat-to-Internet-governments-3723621.php#page-2)
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> This was written before the Snowden revelations, btw. States exist in a
> state of anarchy, when it comes to national security and military affairs.
> Thus it should be****
>
> The choice is not "the multistakeholder model" vs. the ITU. It is the
> denationalization of Internet governance vs. the international anarchy of
> governance by 190 nation-states.****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* apeake at gmail.com [mailto:apeake at gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Adam
> Peake
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 29, 2013 6:59 AM
> *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> *Subject:* [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> Interesting comments.  ****
>
>  ****
>
> Adam****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Carlton Samuels* <carlton.samuels at gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 4:25 AM
> Subject: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead
> To: "lac-discuss-en at atlarge-lists.icann.org" <
> lac-discuss-en at atlarge-lists.icann.org>, At-Large Worldwide <
> at-large at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
>
>
> The CEO of CIRA shares some thoughts on the future of the Internet
>
>
> http://blog.cira.ca/2013/08/the-internet-as-we-know-it-is-dead/?goback=%2Egde_110405_member_268692395#%21
>
> -Carlton
>
> ==============================
> Carlton A Samuels
> Mobile: 876-818-1799
> *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
> =============================
> _______________________________________________
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>  ****
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> --
> Diego R. Canabarro****
>
> http://lattes.cnpq.br/4980585945314597
>
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>
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-- 
Diego R. Canabarro
http://lattes.cnpq.br/4980585945314597

--
diego.canabarro [at] ufrgs.br
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MSN: diegocanabarro [at] gmail.com
Skype: diegocanabarro
Cell # +55-51-9244-3425 (Brasil) / +1-413-362-0133 (USA)
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