<div dir="ltr"><div><div class="gmail_extra">Exactly, Norbert. </div></div><div><br></div><i><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px">MM: I would have to reject the way you presume that the society = the state.</span><br>
</i><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">When I said state (and their societies) there was no assumption (nor any equation) that those societies can only speak through the voice of the State. <br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><i><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px">MM: I also would have to question your assumption that "asymmetries" (not entirely clear what you mean by this, but I assume you mean inequalities) are overcome or mitigated via the existence of states.</span><br>
</i><br><div class="gmail_quote">Again, no assumption. Asymmetries (inequalities being just a form of them) are generally overcome by public policy (foreign policy, be it autocratic or multistakeholder or whatever). Which tends to be fragmented and very conflictive according to several factors (power struggles, social and economic injustices, etc., etc. etc., which tend to divide social actors according to many other different lines). Which leads us to the point of agreement: tough stuff to overcome. But once again: no sort of assumption here. Only a bit of skepticism related to the idea of giving social justice a secondary place. </div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">Best wishes</div><div class="gmail_quote">Diego </div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Milton L Mueller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I would have to reject the way you presume that the society = the state. That is the whole point of my argument - they are not the same, _<i>especially</i>_
in cyberspace.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I also would have to question your assumption that "asymmetries" (not entirely clear what you mean by this, but I assume you mean inequalities) are overcome
or mitigated via the existence of states. Wow, what an assumption. So in the world of states, there is no asymmetry between USA and Uruguay, or between China and Laos. Hmmmm.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">But of course, such problems are not easy to overcome. No one said they were.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;border-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=""><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Diego Rafael Canabarro [mailto:<a href="mailto:diegocanabarro@gmail.com" target="_blank">diegocanabarro@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 29, 2013 4:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Ian Peter<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Milton L Mueller; Adam Peake<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<p class=""><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="">The "denationalized model" proposed in Networks and States intentionally puts asymmetries aside. And for the larger part of those 190 or so states (and their societies), asymmetries (especially socioeconomic ones) are high priority in their
international affairs. It doesn't seem to be something easy to overcome, does it?<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="">Regards<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="">Diego <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="">On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Ian Peter <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Well stated Milton!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">“The choice is not "the multistakeholder model" vs. the ITU. It is the denationalization of Internet governance vs. the international anarchy of governance
by 190 nation-states.”</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="" style="background-color:rgb(245,245,245)"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" title="mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">Milton L Mueller</a>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="" style="background-color:rgb(245,245,245)"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Friday, August 30, 2013 6:15 AM<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="" style="background-color:rgb(245,245,245)"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" title="governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">
governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a> ; <a href="mailto:ajp@glocom.ac.jp" title="ajp@glocom.ac.jp" target="_blank">
'Adam Peake'</a> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="" style="background-color:rgb(245,245,245)"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> RE: [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know
it is dead<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">One of many expressions of (justified) concern at the implications of the NSA revelations, particularly
when everyone was so paranoid about how a mere mention of unsolicited bulk email in the ITRs would have (allegedly) cleared the way for systematic surveillance. Well, it turns out systematic surveillance was already happening… And this was quite predictable.
We need to take more seriously now the 'realist' argument I have been advancing regarding the role of states in Internet governance:
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="">The biggest threats to Internet freedom today do not come from intergovernmental organizations. They come from national governments with the institutional mechanisms to regulate,
restrict, surveil, censor and license Internet suppliers and users. National governments have police forces, armies - and armies of regulators. This includes, especially, our own government, which has greater global reach than any other state. (from
<a href="http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/Greatest-threat-to-Internet-governments-3723621.php#page-2" target="_blank">
http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/Greatest-threat-to-Internet-governments-3723621.php#page-2</a> )<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">This was written before the Snowden revelations, btw. States exist in a state of anarchy, when it
comes to national security and military affairs. Thus it should be</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The choice is not "the multistakeholder model" vs. the ITU. It is the denationalization of Internet
governance vs. the international anarchy of governance by 190 nation-states.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;border-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=""><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:apeake@gmail.com" target="_blank">apeake@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:apeake@gmail.com" target="_blank">apeake@gmail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Adam Peake<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 29, 2013 6:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=""> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="">Interesting comments.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="">Adam<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b>Carlton Samuels</b> <<a href="mailto:carlton.samuels@gmail.com" target="_blank">carlton.samuels@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 4:25 AM<br>
Subject: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead<br>
To: "<a href="mailto:lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>>, At-Large Worldwide
<<a href="mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
The CEO of CIRA shares some thoughts on the future of the Internet<br>
<br>
<a href="http://blog.cira.ca/2013/08/the-internet-as-we-know-it-is-dead/?goback=%2Egde_110405_member_268692395#%21" target="_blank">http://blog.cira.ca/2013/08/the-internet-as-we-know-it-is-dead/?goback=%2Egde_110405_member_268692395#%21</a><br>
<br>
-Carlton<br>
<br>
==============================<br>
Carlton A Samuels<br>
Mobile: <a href="tel:876-818-1799" target="_blank">876-818-1799</a><br>
*Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*<br>
=============================<br>
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At-Large Official Site: <a href="http://atlarge.icann.org" target="_blank">http://atlarge.icann.org</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=""> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
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<br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="">-- <br>
Diego R. Canabarro<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><a href="http://lattes.cnpq.br/4980585945314597" target="_blank">http://lattes.cnpq.br/4980585945314597</a> </span><br>
<br>
--<br>
diego.canabarro [at] <a href="http://ufrgs.br" target="_blank">ufrgs.br</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="">diego [at] <a href="http://pubpol.umass.edu" target="_blank">
pubpol.umass.edu</a><br>
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Skype: diegocanabarro<br>Cell # +55-51-9244-3425 (Brasil) / +1-413-362-0133 (USA)<br>--<br></div><div><br></div>
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