[governance] Re: [igf_members] Proposal: Human Rights Roundtable
Paul Lehto
lehto.paul at gmail.com
Mon Oct 22 09:45:16 EDT 2012
It seems the various voices in this thread are saying almost the same
things if we shift the frame or perspective as follows:
*Consumer rights are APPLICATIONS (in many or most instances) of more
fundamental human rights and principles.* As such, consumer rights are part
of human rights in their "applied" division, but for other reasons related
to being able to have the best discussion at this juncture and with this
group of people, I nevertheless concur that there are sound procedural or
pragmatic reasons to *focus* in on the most fundamental, core applications
of human rights for this roundtable without regard to whether they are
classified as "consumer law" (net neutrality being cited as one such
issue). Thus, my "Conclusion" paragraph at bottom of this reply follows
this brief statement of rationale:
As *applications* of more fundamental and universal human rights and
principles, consumer rights may be correct applications or they may be
flawed and incorrect applications. Occasionally, consumer rights issues may
be such that it seems human rights principles are not implicated at all,
but in such cases the consumer rights are generally compliant with human
rights principles and countries are of course free to adopt diverse
consumer laws in the legitimate exercise of self-determination. But *just
because a consumer law is compliant with human rights does not mean that
human rights are irrelevant to consumer law! *
Among other things, Parminder is appropriately concerned that the desired
discussion at this time about fundamental human rights principles might
well emerge as overly watered down or perhaps slightly vague or awkward if
too much time is devoted to particularized applications of human rights
such as those in consumer law. While I share this concern to a large
extent, at the same time it is suicidal for human rights advocates to risk
being seen as denying the applicability (to consumer law or anything else)
of laws and principles they are asserting are universal in nature.
So, while I agree that a better discussion can probably be had at the
present time if specific applications like consumer law are minimized or
eliminated, ultimately it would or should be the goal of every supporter of
human rights to affirm the applicability of those rights frames without
borders and limits to their scope. And indeed Parminder says things and
quotes language on precisely this general idea of universality, which is
mirrored in many global human rights documents and treaties.
Parminder mentions what appears to be an animating concern for his position
here, namely keeping the "god of the market" from infecting every single
thing. He impliedly sees consumer law as market based or driven, and
specifically says consumer law arises "of contracts." Not so. Nearly
wherever consumer protection laws are enacted, they are democratically
based LIMITS on the freedom and power of contract. Thus, consumer
protection laws can and do say that buyers may not waive their rights, via
contracts, not to be cheated in contracts for the sale of goods with hidden
defects that destroy the value of the goods. Contract law would look only
to the existence of a contractual agreement and would hope to find at least
a "peppercorn" or even the smallest value or consideration being received
by the paying party in order to find a fully enforceable contract, whereas
consumer laws are attempting to escape from the consequences of unequal
bargaining power between parties and the inherent indignities and harm to
civil, political, educational, social and cultural interests that occur
when contract power is abused.
Again, consumer law is basically an application under specific
circumstances of human rights principles, even if fairly frequently the
connection is somewhat remote or hard to see because human rights
violations or issues are not really present. And again, the fact that
something is generally compliant with human rights does not mean human
rights are irrelevant to that situation.
Human rights are very relevant not only to consumer law but to all law,
even if there are very broad areas where pretty much any action is within
the proper discretion of governments because the area is basically
human-rights-compliant.
CONCLUSION: Per the above, in terms of what Parminder called "framing",
consumer rights are clearly part of human rights in the sense that they are
applications under specific facts of general laws and principles. But I
nevertheless would concur in general terms with Parminder's basic position
to more or less *carve out consumer law from this particular discussion or
agenda*, being careful not to deny the applicability of human rights law to
consumer law. The reason for doing so is that given the limited time of
any meetings or round tables like this one, *if the agenda is opened up too
much to specific applications of human rights laws like consumer law, given
the general status and present level of debate surrounding human rights
issues, discussing things like consumer law would water down and make
unclear a more critically needed discussion regarding the human rights
principles themselves and some of their most OBVIOUS applications, like
Parminder's mention of net neutrality,* etc. On this basis, I concur with
Parminder even though I dissent from some of the specific things he has
stated.
Paul Lehto, J.D.
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Jean-Louis FULLSACK
<jlfullsack at orange.fr>wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I fully support Parminder's point (2). Consumer rights are mostly related
> to a specific product/service provided by a public or mostly by a business
> entity, and there are different/specific regulations and legislation in
> each country for settling these disputes. Let's not confuse rights that are
> basically different unless we dissolve HR in a mess of ordinary isssues.
>
>
>
> Best
>
>
>
> Jean-Louis Fullsack
>
>
>
>
> > Message du 20/10/12 15:38
> > De : "Izumi AIZU"
> > A : "governance"
> > Copie à :
> > Objet : [governance] Re: [igf_members] Proposal: Human Rights Roundtable
>
> >
> > Any views or comments?
>
> >
> Izumi
>
> > 2012年10月20日土曜日 parminder parminder at itforchange.net:
> >
>>
>> Dear Izumi/ All
>> >
>> > I suggest that we request the organiser of the human rights round table
>> to
>> >
>> > (1) include social, economic and cultural rights in the background note
>> and the discussions (if specific instances of such rights are needed we can
>> mention, right to access/use the Internet, net neutrality - or the right to
>> have the information, communication or content contributed by any one to
>> the Internet equally as any other, linguistic and other cultural rights vis
>> a vis the domain name system and so on). Also mention indivisibility of
>> human rights as the WSIS documents do.
>> >
>> > (2) Not to foreground consumer rights in a human rights write up.
>> Preferably not to mention it al all, for consumer rights are not human
>> rights. Certainly not in UN usage.
>> >
>> > Thanks and best, parminder
>> >
>> >
>> On Friday 19 October 2012 06:16 AM, Izumi AIZU wrote:
>> >
>>
>> Dear Parminder and all,
>>
>> I thought it is worth asking the list if we support this round table in general.
>>
>> Whether consumer rights be part of Human right or not is of course important,
>> and worth a debate.
>>
>> While the organizer will have their position, I think we, IGC do not
>> have to make a single position on this issue for support or not. As we
>> know, there are different
>> situations/contexts on consumer right issues around the globe, as well as access
>> to Internet and other Internet issues, I think it is worth to have
>> such round table
>> and discuss in depth, rather than making one position beforehand.
>>
>> best,
>>
>> izumi
>>
>> 2012/10/18 parminder :
>>
>> Dear Izumi,
>>
>> As you know I have submitted a detailed comment on this proposal to the MAG
>> list which I will presently forward. I havent got any response from the
>> organisers, which I still hope will come. I think we should wait for their
>> response before we can form a view on it. However, if you support the idea
>> whether any clarification is provided on my comments
>> or not, you can make the case for that here.
>>
>> Best regards, parminder
>>
>>
>> On Thursday 18 October 2012 06:50 AM, Izumi AIZU wrote:
>>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> APC has proposed this and I think IGC should support this.
>>
>> Comments welcome.
>>
>> izumi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>>
>
> >
> > --
> > >> Izumi Aizu <<
> > Institute for InfoSocionomics, Tama University, Tokyo
> > Institute for HyperNetwork Society, Oita,
> > Japan
> > www.anr.org
> >
> >
>
>
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--
Paul R Lehto, J.D.
P.O. Box 1
Ishpeming, MI 49849
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906-204-4965 (cell)
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