<br>It seems the various voices in this thread are saying almost the same things if we shift the frame or perspective as follows:<br><br><u>Consumer rights are APPLICATIONS (in many or most instances) of more fundamental human rights and principles.</u> As such, consumer rights are part of human rights in their "applied" division, but for other reasons related to being able to have the best discussion at this juncture and with this group of people, I nevertheless concur that there are sound procedural or pragmatic reasons to <i>focus</i> in on the most fundamental, core applications of human rights for this roundtable without regard to whether they are classified as "consumer law" (net neutrality being cited as one such issue). Thus, my "Conclusion" paragraph at bottom of this reply follows this brief statement of rationale:<br>
<br>As <i>applications</i> of more fundamental and universal human rights and principles, consumer rights may be correct applications or they may be flawed and incorrect applications. Occasionally, consumer rights issues may be such that it seems human rights principles are not implicated at all, but in such cases the consumer rights are generally compliant with human rights principles and countries are of course free to adopt diverse consumer laws in the legitimate exercise of self-determination. But <i>just because a consumer law is compliant with human rights does not mean that human rights are irrelevant to consumer law! </i><br>
<br>Among other things, Parminder is appropriately concerned that the desired discussion at this time about fundamental human rights principles might well emerge as overly watered down or perhaps slightly vague or awkward if too much time is devoted to particularized applications of human rights such as those in consumer law. While I share this concern to a large extent, at the same time it is suicidal for human rights advocates to risk being seen as denying the applicability (to consumer law or anything else) of laws and principles they are asserting are universal in nature.<br>
<br>So, while I agree that a better discussion can probably be had at the present time if specific applications like consumer law are minimized or eliminated, ultimately it would or should be the goal of every supporter of human rights to affirm the applicability of those rights frames without borders and limits to their scope. And indeed Parminder says things and quotes language on precisely this general idea of universality, which is mirrored in many global human rights documents and treaties.<br>
<br>Parminder mentions what appears to be an animating concern for his position here, namely keeping the "god of the market" from infecting every single thing. He impliedly sees consumer law as market based or driven, and specifically says consumer law arises "of contracts." Not so. Nearly wherever consumer protection laws are enacted, they are democratically based LIMITS on the freedom and power of contract. Thus, consumer protection laws can and do say that buyers may not waive their rights, via contracts, not to be cheated in contracts for the sale of goods with hidden defects that destroy the value of the goods. Contract law would look only to the existence of a contractual agreement and would hope to find at least a "peppercorn" or even the smallest value or consideration being received by the paying party in order to find a fully enforceable contract, whereas consumer laws are attempting to escape from the consequences of unequal bargaining power between parties and the inherent indignities and harm to civil, political, educational, social and cultural interests that occur when contract power is abused. <br>
<br>Again, consumer law is basically an application under specific circumstances of human rights principles, even if fairly frequently the connection is somewhat remote or hard to see because human rights violations or issues are not really present. And again, the fact that something is generally compliant with human rights does not mean human rights are irrelevant to that situation.<br>
<br>Human rights are very relevant not only to consumer law but to all law, even if there are very broad areas where pretty much any action is within the proper discretion of governments because the area is basically human-rights-compliant. <br>
<br>CONCLUSION: Per the above, in terms of what Parminder called "framing", consumer rights are clearly part of human rights in the sense that they are applications under specific facts of general laws and principles. But I nevertheless would concur in general terms with Parminder's basic position to more or less <i>carve out consumer law from this particular discussion or agenda</i>, being careful not to deny the applicability of human rights law to consumer law. The reason for doing so is that given the limited time of any meetings or round tables like this one, <b>if the agenda is opened up too much to specific applications of human rights laws like consumer law, given the general status and present level of debate surrounding human rights issues, discussing things like consumer law would water down and make unclear a more critically needed discussion regarding the human rights principles themselves and some of their most OBVIOUS applications, like Parminder's mention of net neutrality,</b> etc. On this basis, I concur with Parminder even though I dissent from some of the specific things he has stated.<br>
<br>Paul Lehto, J.D. <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Jean-Louis FULLSACK <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jlfullsack@orange.fr" target="_blank">jlfullsack@orange.fr</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I fully support Parminder's point (2). Consumer rights are mostly related to a specific product/service provided by a public or mostly by a business entity, and there are different/specific regulations and legislation in each country for settling these disputes. Let's not confuse rights that are basically different unless we dissolve HR in a mess of ordinary isssues.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Best</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Jean-Louis Fullsack <br><br><br><br><br></p>
<blockquote style="padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;border-left:#ff0000 2px solid">> Message du 20/10/12 15:38<br>> De : "Izumi AIZU" <br>> A : "governance" <br>> Copie à : <br>> Objet : [governance] Re: [igf_members] Proposal: Human Rights Roundtable<div class="im">
<br>> <br>> Any views or comments?
<div><br>></div>
<div>Izumi</div>
</div><div><br>> 2012年10月20日土曜日 parminder <a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>:<br>>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div class="im"><span style="font-family:Verdana">Dear Izumi/ All<br>> <br>> I suggest that we request the organiser of the human rights round table to<br>> <br>> (1) include social, economic and cultural rights in the background note and the discussions (if specific instances of such rights are needed we can mention, right to access/use the Internet, net neutrality - or the right to have the information, communication or content contributed by any one to the Internet equally as any other, linguistic and other cultural rights vis a vis the domain name system and so on). Also mention indivisibility of human rights as the WSIS documents do.<br>
> <br>> (2) Not to foreground consumer rights in a human rights write up. Preferably not to mention it al all, for consumer rights are not human rights. Certainly not in UN usage. <br>> <br>> Thanks and best, parminder <br>
> <br>> </span>
<div>On Friday 19 October 2012 06:16 AM, Izumi AIZU wrote:<br>></div>
</div><blockquote>
<pre>Dear Parminder and all,
I thought it is worth asking the list if we support this round table in general.
Whether consumer rights be part of Human right or not is of course important,
and worth a debate.
While the organizer will have their position, I think we, IGC do not
have to make a single position on this issue for support or not. As we
know, there are different
situations/contexts on consumer right issues around the globe, as well as access
to Internet and other Internet issues, I think it is worth to have
such round table
and discuss in depth, rather than making one position beforehand.
best,
izumi
2012/10/18 parminder :
</pre><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote>
<pre>Dear Izumi,
As you know I have submitted a detailed comment on this proposal to the MAG
list which I will presently forward. I havent got any response from the
organisers, which I still hope will come. I think we should wait for their
response before we can form a view on it. However, if you support the idea
whether any clarification is provided on my comments
or not, you can make the case for that here.
Best regards, parminder
On Thursday 18 October 2012 06:50 AM, Izumi AIZU wrote:
Dear list,
APC has proposed this and I think IGC should support this.
Comments welcome.
izumi
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre> </pre>
</div></div></blockquote>
<br>></div>
</blockquote>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<span></span><br>> <br>> -- <br>> >> Izumi Aizu <<<br>> Institute for InfoSocionomics, Tama University, Tokyo<br>> Institute for HyperNetwork Society, Oita, <br>> Japan<br>
> <a href="http://www.anr.org" target="_blank">www.anr.org</a><br>> <br>> <br><br><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
<br></div></div></blockquote><br>____________________________________________________________<br>
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>
<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
<a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
<br>
For all other list information and functions, see:<br>
<a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br>
<a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
<br>
Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul R Lehto, J.D.<br>P.O. Box 1 <br>Ishpeming, MI 49849 <br><a href="mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com" target="_blank">lehto.paul@gmail.com</a><br>906-204-4965 (cell)<br>
<br><br><br><br><br><br>