[governance] Blogpost: (Whose) Hand off (What) Internet? Some Reflections on WCIT 2012

michael gurstein gurstein at gmail.com
Thu Dec 13 03:17:12 EST 2012 

Hmmm...

Alejandro,

I`m not sure what academic or disciplinary culture you are coming from but
in mine we tend to read things before we comment or post content free `trust
me` judgements about something.

If you had bothered to read the piece you would have seen that the
over-simplification of rather complex issues by the HOI folks was precisely
the point of the blogpost.  I went on to point out how this
over-simplification seemed to be related to the specific interests of some
of the most active proponents of the HOI position. I went then on to
suggested that those with a rather more sophisticated understanding
(presumably you and your confreres) had a responsibility to go beyond
hysterical denunciations of the messenger(s) towards a positive engagement
with the very real issues that were being pointed to and, which absenting a
resolution, would have dire consequences for the Internet.

If you found the subject of post not to your liking that doesn`t seem to be
shared by the some 700 or so folks who have already downloaded it several of
whom made critical but useful substantive comments. Probably worth a read if
you get the time.

M 

-----Original Message-----
From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
[mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Dr. Alejandro
Pisanty Baruch
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 6:56 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; David Allen
Subject: RE: [governance] Blogpost: (Whose) Hand off (What) Internet? Some
Reflections on WCIT 2012

David,

I owed you a reply here. 

Some subset of what Mike Gurstein in facile way characterizes as HOI not
only has a vision of how to build Intenet Governance - they are voting with
their sweat. They are building the mechanisms, agreements, communications,
understandings, actions and discourse. 

These days some of that set are providing delegates at WCIT with constant
feedback, technical knowledge, policy arguments, and personal networks in
order to avert some of the worst-case results of that conference. Some in
Dubai, some away, but that materialization of a vision of Internet
Governance is actually consuming some kiloJoules and having some
demonstrable, traceable effect. 

Guess they may be forgiven for not trying to become the world's
tax-collector-spanking authority. We leave that to the real experts on this
list, impressed by the fiscal knowledge and the rapid setup of an army.
Please be the first in line to tap the flow of funds into the coffers. Oh,
and lay aside the "no taxation without representation" line while you bleed
Google white. 

Yours,

Alejandro Pisanty

! !! !!! !!!!
NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO



+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD

+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO

SMS +525541444475
     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico

Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
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---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

________________________________________
Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
[governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de David Allen
[David_Allen_AB63 at post.harvard.edu]
Enviado el: lunes, 10 de diciembre de 2012 10:51
Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Asunto: Re: [governance] Blogpost: (Whose) Hand off (What) Internet? Some
Reflections on WCIT 2012

I am afraid I see it differently, from my esteemed friend Dr.
Pisanty.  (All the while I have enjoyed the elegance of construction, in his
response!)

As Michael has now excerpted:

> ... the "Hands off the Internet" folks don't go beyond the negative 
> into some positive vision/declaration of where/how they think the 
> Internet should be "governed" (beyond an untenable status quo) ...


Which has led to stalemate, such as with both Tunis follow-ons, IGF and
Enhanced Cooperation.  With stalemate cropping up once again, here with
Dubai.

There has been repeated talk, over the years, of new global regimes, beyond
states, grandly centered on multi-stakeholderism.  But no reality - no
practicable formulation that preserves democracy - to that talk.

That is serious work.  Jeremy began to suggest some thoughts forward

> We all hate hierarchy, but sometimes a little bit of structure is 
> necessary to provide firm enough guidance to policymakers


in the thread, Multi-stakeholder model, evolution and revolution.

David

On Dec 9, 2012, at 7:02 PM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch wrote:

> Mike,
>
> as the great physicist Wolfgang Pauli is often quoted to have said, 
> "it isn't even wrong."
>
> Your article mostly creates a hybrid of red herring, strawman and 
> bogeyman and misses the group, often identified in this list, which 
> does not say "hands off the Internet", is not acting by reflex, is not 
> being driven by the corporate interests you profer to dislike, and 
> therefore makes nuanced, rational analysis and action difficult.
>
> There are serious concerns about what is going on in the ITU's WCIT, 
> serious people trying to address them in a serious way. That they some 
> may find their allies uncomfortable does not fit in your text.
> Your text becomes little more than a distraction.
>
> From such a flawed premise, little of use can be concluded. As I said, 
> it isn't even wrong.
>
>
> Alejandro Pisanty
>
> ! !! !!! !!!!
> NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO
>
>
>
> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
>
> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO
>
> SMS +525541444475
>     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>
> Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, 
> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>
> ________________________________________
> Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org 
> [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> ] en nombre de michael gurstein [gurstein at gmail.com] Enviado el: 
> domingo, 09 de diciembre de 2012 15:30
> Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> Asunto: [governance] Blogpost: (Whose) Hand off (What) Internet?
> Some Reflections on WCIT 2012
>
> FWIW
>
> http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/12/09/whose-hand-off-what-internet-
> some-reflections-on-wcit-2012/
>
> MG
>
>
>
>
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