[governance] Blogpost: (Whose) Hand off (What) Internet? Some Reflections on WCIT 2012

Carlos A. Afonso ca at cafonso.ca
Thu Dec 13 08:14:38 EST 2012 

I see Michael's piece as an excellent critical fact-checking review, and 
I also agree with one of his main conclusions -- organized civil 
society, for several reasons (many of them pointed out by Michael), has 
had tremendous difficulty to put together in a consistent way the exact 
risks regarding the kernel of what we try to defend as the open 
Internet, deriving from it a consistent, point by point "agenda of 
resistance". So, some of us end up engaging in manicheist reactions (and 
some stupid ones, like the DDoS attack on ITU sites).

This is not new, we saw this happening in the WSIS process and 
throughout the IGF process, particularly between Athens and Rio.

One example of our difficulties is that we basically ignored the 
parallel WTSA process and particularly the action of ITU-T regarding 
standards (already in force) for controlling Internet traffic. Who did 
read the scary (for me, nice for telcos) Y.2770 "final" draft? This is 
supposed to be the handbook for telcos and governments to manipulate 
traffic at the link layer -- the main challenge to net neutrality we 
have to confront.

[]s fraternos

--c.a.

On 12/13/2012 06:17 AM, michael gurstein wrote:
> Hmmm...
>
> Alejandro,
>
> I`m not sure what academic or disciplinary culture you are coming from but
> in mine we tend to read things before we comment or post content free `trust
> me` judgements about something.
>
> If you had bothered to read the piece you would have seen that the
> over-simplification of rather complex issues by the HOI folks was precisely
> the point of the blogpost.  I went on to point out how this
> over-simplification seemed to be related to the specific interests of some
> of the most active proponents of the HOI position. I went then on to
> suggested that those with a rather more sophisticated understanding
> (presumably you and your confreres) had a responsibility to go beyond
> hysterical denunciations of the messenger(s) towards a positive engagement
> with the very real issues that were being pointed to and, which absenting a
> resolution, would have dire consequences for the Internet.
>
> If you found the subject of post not to your liking that doesn`t seem to be
> shared by the some 700 or so folks who have already downloaded it several of
> whom made critical but useful substantive comments. Probably worth a read if
> you get the time.
>
> M
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Dr. Alejandro
> Pisanty Baruch
> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 6:56 AM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; David Allen
> Subject: RE: [governance] Blogpost: (Whose) Hand off (What) Internet? Some
> Reflections on WCIT 2012
>
> David,
>
> I owed you a reply here.
>
> Some subset of what Mike Gurstein in facile way characterizes as HOI not
> only has a vision of how to build Intenet Governance - they are voting with
> their sweat. They are building the mechanisms, agreements, communications,
> understandings, actions and discourse.
>
> These days some of that set are providing delegates at WCIT with constant
> feedback, technical knowledge, policy arguments, and personal networks in
> order to avert some of the worst-case results of that conference. Some in
> Dubai, some away, but that materialization of a vision of Internet
> Governance is actually consuming some kiloJoules and having some
> demonstrable, traceable effect.
>
> Guess they may be forgiven for not trying to become the world's
> tax-collector-spanking authority. We leave that to the real experts on this
> list, impressed by the fiscal knowledge and the rapid setup of an army.
> Please be the first in line to tap the flow of funds into the coffers. Oh,
> and lay aside the "no taxation without representation" line while you bleed
> Google white.
>
> Yours,
>
> Alejandro Pisanty
>
> ! !! !!! !!!!
> NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO
>
>
>
> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
>
> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO
>
> SMS +525541444475
>       Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>
> Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>
> ________________________________________
> Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de David Allen
> [David_Allen_AB63 at post.harvard.edu]
> Enviado el: lunes, 10 de diciembre de 2012 10:51
> Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> Asunto: Re: [governance] Blogpost: (Whose) Hand off (What) Internet? Some
> Reflections on WCIT 2012
>
> I am afraid I see it differently, from my esteemed friend Dr.
> Pisanty.  (All the while I have enjoyed the elegance of construction, in his
> response!)
>
> As Michael has now excerpted:
>
>> ... the "Hands off the Internet" folks don't go beyond the negative
>> into some positive vision/declaration of where/how they think the
>> Internet should be "governed" (beyond an untenable status quo) ...
>
>
> Which has led to stalemate, such as with both Tunis follow-ons, IGF and
> Enhanced Cooperation.  With stalemate cropping up once again, here with
> Dubai.
>
> There has been repeated talk, over the years, of new global regimes, beyond
> states, grandly centered on multi-stakeholderism.  But no reality - no
> practicable formulation that preserves democracy - to that talk.
>
> That is serious work.  Jeremy began to suggest some thoughts forward
>
>> We all hate hierarchy, but sometimes a little bit of structure is
>> necessary to provide firm enough guidance to policymakers
>
>
> in the thread, Multi-stakeholder model, evolution and revolution.
>
> David
>
> On Dec 9, 2012, at 7:02 PM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> as the great physicist Wolfgang Pauli is often quoted to have said,
>> "it isn't even wrong."
>>
>> Your article mostly creates a hybrid of red herring, strawman and
>> bogeyman and misses the group, often identified in this list, which
>> does not say "hands off the Internet", is not acting by reflex, is not
>> being driven by the corporate interests you profer to dislike, and
>> therefore makes nuanced, rational analysis and action difficult.
>>
>> There are serious concerns about what is going on in the ITU's WCIT,
>> serious people trying to address them in a serious way. That they some
>> may find their allies uncomfortable does not fit in your text.
>> Your text becomes little more than a distraction.
>>
>>  From such a flawed premise, little of use can be concluded. As I said,
>> it isn't even wrong.
>>
>>
>> Alejandro Pisanty
>>
>> ! !! !!! !!!!
>> NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO
>>
>>
>>
>> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
>>
>> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO
>>
>> SMS +525541444475
>>      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
>> UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>>
>> Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
>> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
>> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
>> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
>> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
>> [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
>> ] en nombre de michael gurstein [gurstein at gmail.com] Enviado el:
>> domingo, 09 de diciembre de 2012 15:30
>> Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> Asunto: [governance] Blogpost: (Whose) Hand off (What) Internet?
>> Some Reflections on WCIT 2012
>>
>> FWIW
>>
>> http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/12/09/whose-hand-off-what-internet-
>> some-reflections-on-wcit-2012/
>>
>> MG
>>
>>
>>
>>
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