[governance] Hmmmm... Google: "Internet Freedom!"... (from taxes?

Fri Dec 7 11:57:57 EST 2012

I was wondering why no one suggested Geneva.
No need to be an IGO. The Red Cross is private, as many other institutions.

Louis
- - -

On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 5:42 PM, McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 2:01 AM, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>wrote:
>
>>
>> On Thursday 06 December 2012 07:08 PM, McTim wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 7:15 AM, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>wrote:
>>
>>  <snip>
>>
>>
>>>  One needs to do more than say I/we are for "internationalising ICANN".
>>> That would be merely rhetoric unless one is ready to present (and engage
>>> with) a credible plan and roadmap, which all those, whom Riaz may call as
>>> "US exceptionalists" and I often call as "US apologists", have never done
>>> here. Have they ever? IF they have, please point me to it.
>>>
>>>
>>  Please see Drake's reply to you the last time we talked about this.  I
>> don't have a link however.
>>
>>
>> McTim, it is you who is advocating a particular kind on ICANN
>> internationalism, and therefore you must tell us the road map, at least the
>> outlines of it.... you cant vaguely refer to 'some email of Bill Drake' and
>> not remember what was it about. That is as a strange a reply as I have ever
>> got...
>>
>
>
> Perhaps you don't read all the mails, but conveniently, MM has just
> delivered a similar missive so that I don't have to go searching for that
> particular mail.  So I refer you to Milton's mail that he just sent:
>  De-nationalisation..."*is not “US exceptionalism” but its opposite."*
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>  No, it isnt enough to say that the US should just terminate the ICANN
>>> contract (including the IANA part) . One needs to propose under what  kind
>>> of arrangement will the new internationalised ICANN get institutionalised
>>> and subsist.
>>>
>>
>>
>>  Why?  Isn't a "free-floating" ICANN the next major step in the ongoing
>> evolution?
>>
>>
>> Because nothing free floats without some kind of anchorage in a
>> polity...... But if you want to, you may describe your vision of a free
>> floating ICANN giving some details and we can discuss it.
>>
>
>
> Isn't the ICANN community "polity" enough?
>
> As for it being HQ'ed in a certain place, well if we reject the Boat idea
> (or find an island that can be made free of a nation-state and buy that)
> then as MM says :
>
> *a.  ****If ICANN is incorporated as a private entity, it will have to be
> in one jurisdiction. As jurisdictions go, there is nothing intrinsically
> worse about the State of California than other jurisdictions. It may be
> better than many others. Yes, this means that US jurisdiction has more
> influence in some types of disputes than others. But special status for the
> home jurisdiction would be true regardless of where it is incorporated. So
> if Parminder or others would like to make a case for another state or
> nation-state jurisdiction, let them do so. So far, no one has.*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> One needs at least framework level indications/ details. Would it still
>>> be headquarter-ed in the US. If so what kind of immunities would it have
>>> from US jurisdiction, and how will they be ensured?
>>>
>>
>>  Evolution means a series of minor changes, this would be several steps
>> down the road, and unless ICANN HQ is moved to the moon (or perhaps a
>> private island [we could call it "Internetistan"] purchased with new gTLD
>> monies) there will always be a jurisdictional issue.  Of course, if ICANN
>> became an IGO of the UN system then your requirements might be met, but
>> none of us ( I think) want an "intergovernmental only" ICANN.
>>
>>
>> So, you are saying that your version of 'internationalised ICANN' will
>> remain subject  to US jurisdiction. Well, as you might suspect, that is not
>> internationalisation in my view. I cant see on what basis you call it
>> internationalisation... I would call it 'phoney internationalisation'. As I
>> have said often, one adverse decision by a US court on an ICANN policy or
>> action, and this whole phoney thing will come unravelled. Why wait for it
>> when we know it is around the corner.....
>>
>
>
> Milton's point b) is germaine here.
>
> If you want a treaty, be careful what you ask for, you will most certainly
> get it (and more).
>
> A treaty is by far the worst option IMHO.
>
> If you want it "internationalised" to the point of no nation-state laws
> applying, then you have to put it in either Antarctica, the moon, an island
> that can be declared independent, or on a ship.
>
> What you seem to want is to move it to Geneva and make it an IGO, governed
> by a treaty, hence my preference for a gradual evolution from the
> status-quo.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route
> indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
>
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