I was wondering why no one suggested Geneva.<br>No need to be an IGO. The Red Cross is private, as many other institutions.<br><br>Louis<br>- - -<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 5:42 PM, McTim <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com" target="_blank">dogwallah@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="im">On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 2:01 AM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div>On Thursday 06 December 2012 07:08 PM,
McTim wrote:<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 7:15 AM, parminder
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
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<snip></div>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> One needs to do more
than say I/we are for "internationalising ICANN". That would
be merely rhetoric unless one is ready to present (and
engage with) a credible plan and roadmap, which all those,
whom Riaz may call as "US exceptionalists" and I often call
as "US apologists", have never done here. Have they ever? IF
they have, please point me to it. <br>
<br>
</div>
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<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please see Drake's reply to you the last time we talked
about this. I don't have a link however.</div>
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<br></div>
McTim, it is you who is advocating a particular kind on ICANN
internationalism, and therefore you must tell us the road map, at
least the outlines of it.... you cant vaguely refer to 'some email
of Bill Drake' and not remember what was it about. That is as a
strange a reply as I have ever got...</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div>Perhaps you don't read all the mails, but conveniently, MM has just delivered a similar missive so that I don't have to go searching for that particular mail. So I refer you to Milton's mail that he just sent: De-nationalisation..."<b style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><i><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:'Courier New';color:rgb(31,73,125)">is not “US exceptionalism” but its opposite."</span></i></b></div>
<div class="im">
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div><br>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> No, it isnt enough to
say that the US should just terminate the ICANN contract
(including the IANA part) . One needs to propose under what
kind of arrangement will the new internationalised ICANN get
institutionalised and subsist. </div>
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<div>Why? Isn't a "free-floating" ICANN the next major step in
the ongoing evolution?</div>
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Because nothing free floats without some kind of anchorage in a
polity...... But if you want to, you may describe your vision of a
free floating ICANN giving some details and we can discuss it. <br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div>Isn't the ICANN community "polity" enough?</div><div><br></div><div>As for it being HQ'ed in a certain place, well if we reject the Boat idea (or find an island that can be made free of a nation-state and buy that) then as MM says :</div>
<div class="im">
<div><br></div><div><b style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><i><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:'Courier New';color:rgb(31,73,125)">a.<span style="font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></i></b><u style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"></u><b style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><i><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:'Courier New';color:rgb(31,73,125)">If ICANN is incorporated as a private entity, it will have to be in one jurisdiction. As jurisdictions go, there is nothing intrinsically worse about the State of California than other jurisdictions. It may be better than many others. Yes, this means that US jurisdiction has more influence in some types of disputes than others. But special status for the home jurisdiction would be true regardless of where it is incorporated. So if Parminder or others would like to make a case for another state or nation-state jurisdiction, let them do so. So far, no one has.</span></i></b></div>
<div> </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">One needs at least
framework level indications/ details. Would it still be
headquarter-ed in the US. If so what kind of immunities
would it have from US jurisdiction, and how will they be
ensured?</div>
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<div><br>
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<div>Evolution means a series of minor changes, this would be
several steps down the road, and unless ICANN HQ is moved to
the moon (or perhaps a private island [we could call it
"Internetistan"] purchased with new gTLD monies) there will
always be a jurisdictional issue. Of course, if ICANN became
an IGO of the UN system then your requirements might be met,
but none of us ( I think) want an "intergovernmental only"
ICANN.</div>
</div></div>
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<br></div><div class="im">
So, you are saying that your version of 'internationalised ICANN'
will remain subject to US jurisdiction. Well, as you might suspect,
that is not internationalisation in my view. I cant see on what
basis you call it internationalisation... I would call it 'phoney
internationalisation'. As I have said often, one adverse decision by
a US court on an ICANN policy or action, and this whole phoney thing
will come unravelled. Why wait for it when we know it is around the
corner.....</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Milton's point b) is germaine here. </div><div><br></div><div>If you want a treaty, be careful what you ask for, you will most certainly get it (and more).</div>
<div><br></div><div>A treaty is by far the worst option IMHO. </div><div><br></div><div>If you want it "internationalised" to the point of no nation-state laws applying, then you have to put it in either Antarctica, the moon, an island that can be declared independent, or on a ship.</div>
<div><br></div><div>What you seem to want is to move it to Geneva and make it an IGO, governed by a treaty, hence my preference for a gradual evolution from the status-quo.</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div>
<br></div><div>-- </div></font></span></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">Cheers,<br>
<br>McTim<br>"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel<br>
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