[governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism Wikileaks) America's vassal acts decisively and illegally
jonathan at jcave.eclipse.co.uk
jonathan at jcave.eclipse.co.uk
Sun Aug 19 16:39:52 EDT 2012
Dear Riaz,
Not an issue of comparability or remission. One party's crimes - or, in this case, unethical acts - do not justify or excuse those done in opposition (otherwise, there would be no 'war crimes', only punishment for losing). They certainly do not justify or excuse other acts done by those who say they oppose e.g. US/UK adventures (in its perjorative sense) when those acts have nothing to do with that opposition.
And the opposition itself shows a reckless disregard for adverse consequences. I suppose that's 'acceptable collateral damage?' So, there may be some degree of moral comparison, though it hardly favours Assange.
J.
Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange
-----Original Message-----
From: Riaz Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 21:54:25
To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; <jonathan at jcave.eclipse.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism Wikileaks) America's
vassal acts decisively and illegally
And how does personal indiscretions and alleged crimes compare with
wholesale slaughter in an illegal war, etc, etc...?
Perhaps it is just a difference of perspective. But methinks it is more
like a paralax...
On 19 August 2012 21:48, <jonathan at jcave.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> I suggest not getting all Manichean about this. More public information is
> not necessarily better and Assange's often cynical and highly
> self-promoting distribution of information unfavourable to *some*
> governments hardly exempts him from moral responsibility, let alone
> qualifies him for broader absolution. His curious reluctance to countenance
> publication of uncontested material embarrassing to himself is icing on the
> cake. J.
> Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mawaki Chango <kichango at gmail.com>
> Sender: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:11:09
> To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Ginger Paque<gpaque at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org,Mawaki Chango <kichango at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism Wikileaks)
> America's
> vassal acts decisively and illegally
>
> Completely agree with Ginger here...
> We can't pretend to ignore the elephant in the room: at this point
> there's no part of this story that can be clearly separated from
> Wikileaks - if only given all the shady zones in this imbroglio. And
> yes, it is unfortunate that the rape issue is now and then exploited
> in ways that can undermine legitimate claims. Again a lot remains
> unclear, unfortunately, due to the behavior of the Sweden's
> government.
>
> mawaki
>
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:
> > This may be IG related in the sense that WikiLeaks involves IG, and the
> > sexual misconduct case may (I say 'may' because I simply do not have all
> of
> > the facts) be a manipulation of the WikiLeaks case.
> >
> > My firmest point is that the two issues should be separated, the sexual
> > misconduct case addressed, and the central case, WikiLeaks, get back in
> > focus.
> >
> > I dislike/resent the use of women/gender/sex as a tool that undermines
> the
> > case for legitimate cases of sexual misconduct. If Assange/Assange's
> lawyers
> > would force the sexual misconduct issue (without going to Sweden--on
> video,
> > webinar, whatever), it would remove this distraction from the picture,
> and
> > force the UK to show its hand. In the meantime, we cannot just ignore the
> > sexual misconduct allegations. Women and sexual misconduct charges should
> > not be used as legal manipulations and distractions.
> > Ginger
> >
> >
> > Ginger (Virginia) Paque
> >
> > VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
> > Diplo Foundation
> > Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
> > www.diplomacy.edu/ig
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 19 August 2012 08:48, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> You know that the 5 biggest financial institutions Bank of America,
> Visa,
> >>> mastercard, wester union and paypal decided to block donations to
> wikileaks
> >>> reducing it in 95%? Censorship? Have here an IG issue as requested for
> some
> >>> people here?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, but what have the 5 banks to do with Assange's alleged assaults?
> >>
> >> Don't get me wrong, wikileaks is incredibly important, but I do not see
> >> the connection between the issues in this thread and Internet
> governance.
> >> If you want to change the subject, fine :-)
> >>
> >> Pussy Riot more relevant, part of their "crime" being posting their
> >> protest on the Internet.
> >>
> >> Adam
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> you can still send donations using https://flattr.com/
> >>>
> >>> Carlos Vera
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Enviado desde mi iPhone
> >>>
> >>> El 19/08/2012, a las 6:42, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> escribió:
> >>>
> >>>> Dominique, hi.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rape? Charged?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Assange's lawyer's say accused. But the european arrest warrant the
> >>>> UK believes it must enforce says he is wanted for prosecution. I'm
> >>>> not a lawyer, not clue about the difference.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> 1. Assange is not (yet) charged. The judge only wants to ask him
> some
> >>>>> questions. Telecom provide some means, indeed...
> >>>>> 2. Rape? Perhaps some of us on this list, men AND women, are rapers
> at
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> Swedish sense:
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I very much hope not.
> >>>>
> >>>> Indecent assault isn't that common, is it? As you note the offense
> >>>> carries a maximum 4 year sentence. Not trivial.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Under Swedish law, there are legal gradations of the definition of
> >>>>> rape.
> >>>>> There is the most serious kind, involving major violence.
> >>>>> But below that there is the concept of 'regular rape', still
> involving
> >>>>> violence but not violence of the utmost horror.
> >>>>> And below that there is the idea of 'unlawful coercion'. Talking
> >>>>> generally,
> >>>>> and not about the Assange case, this might involve putting emotional
> >>>>> pressure on someone.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The three categories involve prison sentences of 10, six and four
> >>>>> years
> >>>>> respectively.
> >>>>> The lawyer for the two women who have complained against Mr Assange
> >>>>> will not
> >>>>> spell out the details because he says that would give too much away
> to
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> accused man. But he does indicate that it is a four-year sentence
> that
> >>>>> Mr
> >>>>> Assange could expect, indicating that he is suspected of this third,
> >>>>> less
> >>>>> serious category."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And the great conclusion is:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "The attitude towards rape in Sweden - informed by a strong sense of
> >>>>> women's
> >>>>> rights - means that it is more likely to be reported to police.
> >>>>> Some 53 rape offences are reported per 100,000 people, the highest
> >>>>> rate in
> >>>>> Europe.
> >>>>> The figures may reflect a higher number of actual rapes committed
> but
> >>>>> it
> >>>>> seems more likely that tough attitudes and a broader definition of
> the
> >>>>> crime
> >>>>> are more significant factors."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11946652
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Isn't it a bit unbalanced, facing whistleblowers issue?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, Adam, CIA or not CIA, this case seems to me two Internet
> >>>>> Governance
> >>>>> issues.
> >>>>> - Lawful here, unlawful there.
> >>>>> - Whistleblowers right at the Digital age.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How would you deal with these questions?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorry, don't get it, what has Assange's situation to do with Internet
> >>>> governance, even in its broadest sense? He didn't do anything online
> >>>> or on the Internet, he is accused of assaulting two women. And those
> >>>> two people seem to be being very much overlooked at the moment.
> >>>>
> >>>> Adam
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> @+, Dominique
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dominique Lacroix
> >>>>> Société européenne de l'Internet
> >>>>> http://www.ies-france.eu
> >>>>> +33 (0)6 63 24 39 14
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Le 19/08/12 12:28, Fahd A. Batayneh a écrit :
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Ginger Paque <ginger at paque.net>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I admire Assange. I am glad he has the courage to carry out his
> >>>>>> WikiLeaks
> >>>>>> work. I don't think he should be persecuted, or face politically
> >>>>>> motivated
> >>>>>> harassment or charge.
> >>>
> >>> >>> I don't think being a legitimate social hero allows him to avoid
> >>> facing
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> charges of rape if the are legitimate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ginger
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That makes us 2 Ginger. ROCK ON!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fahd
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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