[governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism Wikileaks) America's vassal acts decisively and illegally
Riaz Tayob
riaz.tayob at gmail.com
Sun Aug 19 15:54:25 EDT 2012
And how does personal indiscretions and alleged crimes compare with
wholesale slaughter in an illegal war, etc, etc...?
Perhaps it is just a difference of perspective. But methinks it is more
like a paralax...
On 19 August 2012 21:48, <jonathan at jcave.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> I suggest not getting all Manichean about this. More public information is
> not necessarily better and Assange's often cynical and highly
> self-promoting distribution of information unfavourable to *some*
> governments hardly exempts him from moral responsibility, let alone
> qualifies him for broader absolution. His curious reluctance to countenance
> publication of uncontested material embarrassing to himself is icing on the
> cake. J.
> Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mawaki Chango <kichango at gmail.com>
> Sender: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:11:09
> To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Ginger Paque<gpaque at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org,Mawaki Chango <kichango at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism Wikileaks)
> America's
> vassal acts decisively and illegally
>
> Completely agree with Ginger here...
> We can't pretend to ignore the elephant in the room: at this point
> there's no part of this story that can be clearly separated from
> Wikileaks - if only given all the shady zones in this imbroglio. And
> yes, it is unfortunate that the rape issue is now and then exploited
> in ways that can undermine legitimate claims. Again a lot remains
> unclear, unfortunately, due to the behavior of the Sweden's
> government.
>
> mawaki
>
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:
> > This may be IG related in the sense that WikiLeaks involves IG, and the
> > sexual misconduct case may (I say 'may' because I simply do not have all
> of
> > the facts) be a manipulation of the WikiLeaks case.
> >
> > My firmest point is that the two issues should be separated, the sexual
> > misconduct case addressed, and the central case, WikiLeaks, get back in
> > focus.
> >
> > I dislike/resent the use of women/gender/sex as a tool that undermines
> the
> > case for legitimate cases of sexual misconduct. If Assange/Assange's
> lawyers
> > would force the sexual misconduct issue (without going to Sweden--on
> video,
> > webinar, whatever), it would remove this distraction from the picture,
> and
> > force the UK to show its hand. In the meantime, we cannot just ignore the
> > sexual misconduct allegations. Women and sexual misconduct charges should
> > not be used as legal manipulations and distractions.
> > Ginger
> >
> >
> > Ginger (Virginia) Paque
> >
> > VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
> > Diplo Foundation
> > Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
> > www.diplomacy.edu/ig
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 19 August 2012 08:48, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> You know that the 5 biggest financial institutions Bank of America,
> Visa,
> >>> mastercard, wester union and paypal decided to block donations to
> wikileaks
> >>> reducing it in 95%? Censorship? Have here an IG issue as requested for
> some
> >>> people here?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, but what have the 5 banks to do with Assange's alleged assaults?
> >>
> >> Don't get me wrong, wikileaks is incredibly important, but I do not see
> >> the connection between the issues in this thread and Internet
> governance.
> >> If you want to change the subject, fine :-)
> >>
> >> Pussy Riot more relevant, part of their "crime" being posting their
> >> protest on the Internet.
> >>
> >> Adam
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> you can still send donations using https://flattr.com/
> >>>
> >>> Carlos Vera
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Enviado desde mi iPhone
> >>>
> >>> El 19/08/2012, a las 6:42, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> escribió:
> >>>
> >>>> Dominique, hi.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rape? Charged?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Assange's lawyer's say accused. But the european arrest warrant the
> >>>> UK believes it must enforce says he is wanted for prosecution. I'm
> >>>> not a lawyer, not clue about the difference.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> 1. Assange is not (yet) charged. The judge only wants to ask him
> some
> >>>>> questions. Telecom provide some means, indeed...
> >>>>> 2. Rape? Perhaps some of us on this list, men AND women, are rapers
> at
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> Swedish sense:
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I very much hope not.
> >>>>
> >>>> Indecent assault isn't that common, is it? As you note the offense
> >>>> carries a maximum 4 year sentence. Not trivial.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Under Swedish law, there are legal gradations of the definition of
> >>>>> rape.
> >>>>> There is the most serious kind, involving major violence.
> >>>>> But below that there is the concept of 'regular rape', still
> involving
> >>>>> violence but not violence of the utmost horror.
> >>>>> And below that there is the idea of 'unlawful coercion'. Talking
> >>>>> generally,
> >>>>> and not about the Assange case, this might involve putting emotional
> >>>>> pressure on someone.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The three categories involve prison sentences of 10, six and four
> >>>>> years
> >>>>> respectively.
> >>>>> The lawyer for the two women who have complained against Mr Assange
> >>>>> will not
> >>>>> spell out the details because he says that would give too much away
> to
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> accused man. But he does indicate that it is a four-year sentence
> that
> >>>>> Mr
> >>>>> Assange could expect, indicating that he is suspected of this third,
> >>>>> less
> >>>>> serious category."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And the great conclusion is:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "The attitude towards rape in Sweden - informed by a strong sense of
> >>>>> women's
> >>>>> rights - means that it is more likely to be reported to police.
> >>>>> Some 53 rape offences are reported per 100,000 people, the highest
> >>>>> rate in
> >>>>> Europe.
> >>>>> The figures may reflect a higher number of actual rapes committed
> but
> >>>>> it
> >>>>> seems more likely that tough attitudes and a broader definition of
> the
> >>>>> crime
> >>>>> are more significant factors."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11946652
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Isn't it a bit unbalanced, facing whistleblowers issue?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, Adam, CIA or not CIA, this case seems to me two Internet
> >>>>> Governance
> >>>>> issues.
> >>>>> - Lawful here, unlawful there.
> >>>>> - Whistleblowers right at the Digital age.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How would you deal with these questions?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorry, don't get it, what has Assange's situation to do with Internet
> >>>> governance, even in its broadest sense? He didn't do anything online
> >>>> or on the Internet, he is accused of assaulting two women. And those
> >>>> two people seem to be being very much overlooked at the moment.
> >>>>
> >>>> Adam
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> @+, Dominique
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dominique Lacroix
> >>>>> Société européenne de l'Internet
> >>>>> http://www.ies-france.eu
> >>>>> +33 (0)6 63 24 39 14
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Le 19/08/12 12:28, Fahd A. Batayneh a écrit :
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Ginger Paque <ginger at paque.net>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I admire Assange. I am glad he has the courage to carry out his
> >>>>>> WikiLeaks
> >>>>>> work. I don't think he should be persecuted, or face politically
> >>>>>> motivated
> >>>>>> harassment or charge.
> >>>
> >>> >>> I don't think being a legitimate social hero allows him to avoid
> >>> facing
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> charges of rape if the are legitimate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ginger
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That makes us 2 Ginger. ROCK ON!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fahd
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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