[governance] Re: The Internet (as we know it) can never be "private"

Sun Jul 17 08:29:30 EDT 2011

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 11:08 PM, Roland Perry <
roland at internetpolicyagency.com> wrote:

> In message <CAJwbTiDaiUhk-h97Yr3n8zcF6_**TSH0kSDXJ-gn3H3aJXhu5RRA at mail.**
> gmail.com<CAJwbTiDaiUhk-h97Yr3n8zcF6_TSH0kSDXJ-gn3H3aJXhu5RRA at mail.gmail.com>>,
> at 22:18:25 on Sun, 17 Jul 2011, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
> salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@**gmail.com<salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>>
> writes
>
>
>  I would like to link the reason why I asked the questions back to the
>> general thread: if the internet is "public" why is it that some get
>> marginalised.
>>
>
> Airlines are "public" transport (in the sense that anyone can use them.
> They are even publicly owned in some cases (less so in modern times I
> agree). None of this makes it the same price to fly inside Africa (which I
> understand is also an issue) as to fly inside Europe or the USA.
>
>
>   I do not know much about Kenya except for the little I have read but I
>> will say this, it is easy for you to say that people should stop
>> whinging about high international internet costs.
>>
>
> People are entitles to complain, but I am also entitled to point out that
> there are good reasons for the difference in costs. It's not a conspiracy by
> the developed world, and indeed much of the developed world had the same
> costs as recently as a decade ago. Rather than sit waiting for someone to
> give you a free lunch, why not try to solve the problem by investing in
> connectivity, just like everyone else had to?
>
> Who says we are sitting for someone to give us a free lunch? Believe it or
not, we are trying  to solve the problems and part of these is to deal with
a discussion on the challenges.

>
>  I don't think the paper agreed with you, it actually disagreed with
>> your position.
>>
>
> It agreed with me that it's users (not ISPs) who pay. That's half the
> original proposition shot down in flames. Yes, we disagree from there
> onwards!
>
> The ISPs are forced to carry the cost from whoever is providing backhaul
> and this is passed to the end user. "Shot down in flames" is an exaggeration
> that in this instance detracts from the issue of equity in costs bearing.
>

>
>  In principle, the point is that an ordinary user in a
>> developing world (Kenya) had to be forced and probably is still being
>> forced to carry someone else's cost. Where is the fairness/equity?
>>
>
> They aren't being forced to pay *anyone* else's cost. The cost is the cost
> of connecting to the Internet. It's not my fault they currently live
> somewhere far from the Interconnections which *define* "The Internet", and
> that Americans live nearer.
>

Who said it was your fault?

>
> You might as well say it's someone's fault that a Kenyan has to pay a
> fortune in travelling expense to visit Disneyland, but a Florida resident
> doesn't. Answer: build your own Disneyland closer to home, rather than
> forcing an airline to cross the Atlantic for nothing.
>
> Why would they need a Disneyland when they have georgous terrain and
> wildlife and canopy that you cannot artificially construct? Who would I need
> Disneyland when I can travel 20 km from where I am and swim with the
> dolphins. It is the height of arrogance to assume that we want to visit
> Disneyland.
>
>> Back to the internet as a "public" good - if it is how then can the
>> governance forum address these issues. To you it may be a half a
>> circuit fallacy but to the people in the developing world this is a
>> harsh reality.
>>
>
> If you want to fix the problem (and there *is* a problem), then *please*
> express it using the correct parameters. You'll never make progress trying
> to cure the *wrong* disease, any more than you'll cure a brain tumour by
> taking aspirin for the headache (or passing a law that says everyone must
> have cheap aspirin available).

> Roland.
>
>  On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 9:54 PM, Roland Perry <
>> roland at internetpolicyagency.**com <roland at internetpolicyagency.com>>
>> wrote:
>>  In message <CAJwbTiA0kuDBGgJ81jrAYeUTkjBF  SLZaWB2zVeWQJezxjK7AOA at mail.*
>> *gmail.com <SLZaWB2zVeWQJezxjK7AOA at mail.gmail.com>>, at 21:05:58 on Sun,
>> 17 Jul
>>
>>  2011, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@
>> gmail.com> writes
>>   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/**africa/1931120.stm<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1931120.stm>
>>  Yes, I know. The half-circuit fallacy has got plenty of air-time.
>>  Perhaps we can move on, and try to fit round pegs in round holes,
>>  rather than complaining it costs too much money to push square pegs
>>  into round holes?
>>  --
>>  Roland Perry
>>  ______________________________**______________________________
>>  You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>  To be removed from the list, visit:
>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/**unsubscribing<http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing>
>>  For all other list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/**info/governance<http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance>
>>  To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>  Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/**translate_t<http://translate.google.com/translate_t>
>>
>> --
>> Sala
>>
>> "Stillness in the midst of the noise".
>> ______________________________**______________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>    http://www.igcaucus.org/**unsubscribing<http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing>
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/**info/governance<http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance>
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>    http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/**translate_t<http://translate.google.com/translate_t>
>>
>>
> --
> Roland Perry
> ______________________________**______________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>    http://www.igcaucus.org/**unsubscribing<http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing>
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/**info/governance<http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance>
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>    http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/**translate_t<http://translate.google.com/translate_t>
>
>

-- 
Sala

"Stillness in the midst of the noise".
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.igcaucus.org/pipermail/governance/attachments/20110718/2b71cd9e/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, visit:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing

For all other list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/

Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t