[governance] Inputs for synthesis paper

Mon Sep 8 17:15:51 EDT 2008

Hello Ian Peter,

Thank you for your response. If there is too little time to go over
alternative themes the Caucus could continue perfecting this proposal. I do
agree that this is a great topic but the topic is so sensitive and tricky
that it needs to be very carefully defined.

Thank you
Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
India.

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:

>  Hi Sivasubramanian,
>
>
>
>
>
> Our issue here is to prepare a paper (or papers) for submission within
> about 3 days from now. I doubt we can thoroughly explore any of these
> proposed themes in that timeframe.
>
>
>
> We might have a lot of passion and differing viewpoints on rights and how
> they relate to Internet governance, that to me makes it a great subject for
> further exploration with all stakeholders.
>
>
>
> Ian Peter
>
> Ian Peter and Associates Pty Ltd
>
> PO Box 10670 Adelaide St  Brisbane 4000
>
> Australia
>
> Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773
>
> www.ianpeter.com
>
>
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Sivasubramanian Muthusamy [mailto:isolatedn at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 09 September 2008 06:48
> *To:* governance at lists.cpsr.org; Ian Peter
>
> *Subject:* Re: [governance] Inputs for synthesis paper
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 1:11 AM, Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:
>
>  within the context of the general request, which is to make rights a main
> theme for Cairo? (which doesn't seem to be disputed)
>
>
> Hello Ian and Parminder,
>
> I have one of Parminder's documents embedded in my blog and took a rapid
> look at it to find interesting alternatives to the theme of rights, and
> found that the document talks about Internet as Public Infrastructure.
>
> There has been a lot of passion about this topic of "rights" but this topic
> is dangerous territory. Can we think of "Internet as Public Infrastructure"
> as the overwhelming theme of the IGF, Cairo?
>
> The other themes that occurred to me are "Depoliticizing the Internet",
> again from Parminder's document, but this theme again is a double edged
> sword like the theme of "Rights" and would charge the IGF atmosphere with a
> lot of political debates.
>
> One more theme could be the broad theme of "preserving the essential
> characteristics of the Internet in the process of unrestrained growth" or
> even simply "Internet for the next billion users- challenges in Governance"
>
>
>
> Ian Peter
>
> Ian Peter and Associates Pty Ltd
>
> PO Box 10670 Adelaide St  Brisbane 4000
>
> Australia
>
> Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773
>
> www.ianpeter.com
>
>
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Sivasubramanian Muthusamy [mailto:isolatedn at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 09 September 2008 04:35
> *To:* governance at lists.cpsr.org; Tapani Tarvainen
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [governance] Inputs for synthesis paper
>
>
>
> Hello Parminder and All,
>
>
>
> All the heat is about the connotations of the term "collective rights". I
> tried to understand the distinction between individual right and collective
> right and this is what I found:<http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5357/ihr6a.html>
>
> *Individual Rights apply to the generic individual without regard to his
> or her identity.... These rights are determined with no knowledge of what
> our actual economic standing, educational level, gender, or ethnic origin
> would be. Most international and national formulations of human rights are
> drafted in such a way as to apply to a generic individual.*
>
> *Collective rights, however, do not start with the individual but rather
> with a specific group. Individuals are defined by their membership in that
> group, which thus differentiates them from others in society. Some
> collectives are formed by choice (religious affiliation in the United
> States, for example). Others are predetermined (the traditional
> understanding of gender, for example). Collective rights begin with the
> premise that the group has a claim to make. Historically, we can see
> numerous examples of group treatment (generally negative). In the Roman
> Empire, for example, Jews possessed the status of a religio licita, and as
> such enjoyed specific rights as Jews--the right not to work on the Sabbath,
> or to recognize the divinity of the Emperor. Such rights were granted to the
> Jewish collective and thus to the individual Jew of the Empire by virtue of
> being Jewish and thus distinct from Greeks or Syrians or Celts in the
> Empire. The Ottoman Empire was governed under the millet system, by which
> each group in the Empire was defined via their religious community. Thus,
> people living in the same town but belonging to different faiths had
> different rights and obligations on account of their group membership. A
> vague notion of collective rights also lay behind the concept of
> extra-territoriality, that people, by virtue of their citizenship, in
> foreign lands should be governed, not by local law, but by the laws of their
> originating state. ---- from a Lecture of Dr. Nikolas K. Gvosdev, Editor
> of The National Interest and a Senior Fellow in Strategic Studies at The
> Nixon Center.*
>
> Internet Governance Caucus can propose Collective Rights if we would like
> to see different bandwidth plans for men and women, priority access for
> "backward and "most backward" classes as invented in India,  publishing
> space discrimination between different churches, and free DVD movies for
> those who live in mountains.
>
> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy.
>
> India.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Tapani Tarvainen <
> tapani.tarvainen at effi.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 10:02:20PM +0530, Parminder (
> parminder at itforchange.net) wrote:
>
> > 'Collective rights' is obviously an analytical category and not a right
> as
> > such. So when I speak of collective rights I am clearly meaning specific
> > rights like rights of indigenous people, linguistic rights, cultural
> rights,
> > minority rights, right to development etc.
>
> > To say that one doesn't believe in collective rights one must be able to
> say
> > that one doesn't believe in the above rights.
>
> It does not follow if one does not agree that those rights are collective.
>
> I suspect one or maybe the key problem here is that the term indeed
> carries different meanings, and people want to reject some of them.
>
> In particular, probably few (?) people would oppose collective
> rights as justification of individual rights - rights individuals
> would have because of their membership in a group.
> The opposition stems from the other meaning, where collective
> rights would justify depriving individuals of their rights.
>
>
> > In fact I am fine if one is ready to accept a long list of all these
> rights,
> > and not mention the terms negative, positive and collective rights. That
> > merely would mean one thinks all these rights, along with those that may
> be
> > considered negative and positive rights are in the same category, and
> need
> > not be differentiated. I could in fact be happier with such a position.
>
> That might be a useful approach.
>
> --
> Tapani Tarvainen
>
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