<div dir="ltr">Hello Ian Peter,<br>
<br>
Thank you for your response. If there is too little time to go over
alternative themes the Caucus could continue perfecting this proposal.
I do agree that this is a great topic but the topic is so sensitive and tricky
that it needs to be very carefully defined.<br>
<br><br>
Thank you<br>
Sivasubramanian Muthusamy<br>
India.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Ian Peter <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Hi Sivasubramanian,</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Our issue here is to prepare a paper (or
papers) for submission within about 3 days from now. I doubt we can thoroughly
explore any of these proposed themes in that timeframe. </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">We might have a lot of passion and
differing viewpoints on rights and how they relate to Internet governance, that
to me makes it a great subject for further exploration with all stakeholders.</span></font></p><div class="Ih2E3d">
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Ian Peter</span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Ian Peter</span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"> and Associates Pty Ltd</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">PO Box 10670 Adelaide St Brisbane
4000</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Australia</span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"><a href="http://www.ianpeter.com" target="_blank">www.ianpeter.com</a></span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
</div><div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;">
<div>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Sivasubramanian
Muthusamy [mailto:<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> 09 September 2008 06:48<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>;
Ian Peter<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</div></div></span></font></p>
</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 1:11 AM, Ian Peter
<<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;">
<div link="blue" vlink="blue">
<div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">within the context of the general request, which is to make
rights a main theme for Cairo?
(which doesn't seem to be disputed)</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
Hello Ian and Parminder,<br>
<br>
I have one of Parminder's documents embedded in my blog and took a rapid look
at it to find interesting alternatives to the theme of rights, and found that
the document talks about Internet as Public Infrastructure. <br>
<br>
There has been a lot of passion about this topic of "rights" but this
topic is dangerous territory. Can we think of "Internet as Public
Infrastructure" as the overwhelming theme of the IGF, Cairo?<br>
<br>
The other themes that occurred to me are "Depoliticizing the
Internet", again from Parminder's document, but this theme again is a
double edged sword like the theme of "Rights" and would charge the
IGF atmosphere with a lot of political debates. <br>
<br>
One more theme could be the broad theme of "preserving the essential
characteristics of the Internet in the process of unrestrained growth" or
even simply "Internet for the next billion users- challenges in
Governance"</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;">
<div link="blue" vlink="blue">
<div>
<div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Ian Peter</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Ian Peter</span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"> and Associates Pty Ltd</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">PO Box 10670 Adelaide
St Brisbane
4000</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Australia</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"><a href="http://www.ianpeter.com" target="_blank">www.ianpeter.com</a></span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;">
<div>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy [mailto:<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> 09 September 2008 04:35<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>;
Tapani Tarvainen</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Hello
Parminder and All,</span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<br>
All the heat is about the connotations of the term "collective
rights". I tried to understand the distinction between individual right
and collective right and this is what I <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5357/ihr6a.html" target="_blank">found:</a></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><i><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: italic;">Individual Rights apply to the
generic individual without regard to his or her identity.... These rights are
determined with no knowledge of what our actual economic standing, educational
level, gender, or ethnic origin would be. Most international and national
formulations of human rights are drafted in such a way as to apply to a generic
individual.</span></font></i> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><i><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: italic;">Collective rights, however, do not start with the individual
but rather with a specific group. Individuals are defined by their membership
in that group, which thus differentiates them from others in society. Some
collectives are formed by choice (religious affiliation in the United States,
for example). Others are predetermined (the traditional understanding of
gender, for example). Collective rights begin with the premise that the group
has a claim to make. Historically, we can see numerous examples of group
treatment (generally negative). In the Roman Empire,
for example, Jews possessed the status of a <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">religio
licita</span></b>, and as such enjoyed specific rights as Jews--the right not
to work on the Sabbath, or to recognize the divinity of the Emperor. Such
rights were granted to the Jewish collective and thus to the individual Jew of
the Empire by virtue of being Jewish and thus distinct from Greeks or Syrians
or Celts in the Empire. The Ottoman Empire was
governed under the <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">millet</span></b> system,
by which each group in the Empire was defined via their religious community.
Thus, people living in the same town but belonging to different faiths had
different rights and obligations on account of their group membership. A vague
notion of collective rights also lay behind the concept of
extra-territoriality, that people, by virtue of their citizenship, in foreign
lands should be governed, not by local law, but by the laws of their
originating state. ---- from a Lecture of Dr. Nikolas K. Gvosdev, </span></font>Editor
of The National Interest and a Senior Fellow in Strategic Studies at The Nixon Center.</i></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Internet
Governance Caucus can propose Collective Rights if we would like to see
different bandwidth plans for men and women, priority access for "backward
and "most backward" classes as invented in India, publishing space
discrimination between different </span></font>churches, and free DVD movies
for those who live in mountains.</p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Sivasubramanian
Muthusamy.</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">India</span></font>.</p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Mon,
Sep 8, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Tapani Tarvainen <<a href="mailto:tapani.tarvainen@effi.org" target="_blank">tapani.tarvainen@effi.org</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 10:02:20PM +0530, Parminder (<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>)
wrote:<br>
<br>
> 'Collective rights' is obviously an analytical category and not a right as<br>
> such. So when I speak of collective rights I am clearly meaning specific<br>
> rights like rights of indigenous people, linguistic rights, cultural
rights,<br>
> minority rights, right to development etc.<br>
<br>
> To say that one doesn't believe in collective rights one must be able to
say<br>
> that one doesn't believe in the above rights.</span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">It does
not follow if one does not agree that those rights are collective.<br>
<br>
I suspect one or maybe the key problem here is that the term indeed<br>
carries different meanings, and people want to reject some of them.<br>
<br>
In particular, probably few (?) people would oppose collective<br>
rights as justification of individual rights - rights individuals<br>
would have because of their membership in a group.<br>
The opposition stems from the other meaning, where collective<br>
rights would justify depriving individuals of their rights.</span></font></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
> In fact I am fine if one is ready to accept a long list of all these
rights,<br>
> and not mention the terms negative, positive and collective rights. That<br>
> merely would mean one thinks all these rights, along with those that may
be<br>
> considered negative and positive rights are in the same category, and need<br>
> not be differentiated. I could in fact be happier with such a position.</span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">That
might be a useful approach.<br>
<br>
--<br>
<font color="#888888"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Tapani Tarvainen</span></font></span></font></p>
<div>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy</a></span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Internal
Virus Database is out of date.</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">http://www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1602 - Release Date: 8/9/2008 1:22
PM</span></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
____________________________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy</a></span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Internal
Virus Database is out of date.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">http://www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1602 - Release Date: 8/9/2008 1:22
PM</span></font></p>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy">http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy</a><br>
</div>