[governance] Irony

[Carlos Afonso]

Messing with, not "missing with", of course... :)

Ahhh, a hot plate of watercress with ox tail chunks... one of the best 
dishes of Rio! In Portuguese it is called "rabada com agrião", and must 
be accompanied by a caipirinha, of course.

abraços fraternos

--c.a.

Rui Correia wrote:
> Broccolli is good for you and easy to work with - even beginners soon learn
> how to maximise the benefits of working with it, what it goes well with etc.
> Now, ICANN is like ox tail - not easy to work, and with so few successful
> recipes, you are too scared to explore and experiment. So you end up
> allowing the ox tail dictating how to work with it. And it doesn't go with
> everything. Don't forget the toothpicks.
> 
> Rui
> 
> On 29/11/2007, Carlos Afonso <ca at rits.org.br> wrote:
>> Ahh, broccolli, definitely not. I love broccolli and I do not admit
>> anyone missing with it. Now, ICANN, hmmmm....
>>
>> --c.a.
>>
>> Kieren McCarthy wrote:
>>>> As 'general manager of public participation', I wonder if Kieren is
>>>> perhaps attempting to do precisely that - 'managing' the discussions
>>>> (attempting to influence the range of 'allowable discourse') by
>>>> pronouncing judgement on what is rude or 'personal criticism'.
>>>
>>> Damn you caught me out. That's exactly what I was trying to do.
>>>
>>> As such, I am afraid that, Guru, I hereafter ban you from discussing my
>> role
>>> in ICANN.
>>>
>>> I should say I am also considering banning all discussion of ICANN
>> except
>>> with my express permission. And then only on topics I get to decide.
>>>
>>> I never knew I had so much power. Can I stop people from discussing
>> other
>>> issues as well? Like broccoli.
>>>
>>> Perhaps it's best if everyone from now on simply send me an email
>> outlining
>>> what they would like to discuss and when. I am quite busy at the moment
>> so
>>> people should expect several days' delay before a response is granted.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kieren
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Guru at ITfC [mailto:guru at itforchange.net]
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:40 AM
>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Irony
>>>
>>> I was struck by an irony on reading Meryems' mail - on 'simply I find
>> very
>>> strange this approach to institutions'
>>>
>>> As 'general manager of public participation', I wonder if Kieren is
>> perhaps
>>> attempting to do precisely that - 'managing' the discussions (attempting
>> to
>>> influence the range of 'allowable discourse') by pronouncing judgement
>> on
>>> what is rude or 'personal criticism'. These attempts convey that
>> substantive
>>> criticism of ICANN has sometimes been considered 'ad hominem' or 'naïve'
>>> (apparently premising on the belief that the alternative to ICANN can
>> only
>>> be 'Government control' which is ad-infinitum worse ..... and that all
>>> discussions on IG need to necessarily be fully anchored within the
>> current
>>> ig structures) or has been simply ignored.
>>>
>>> Maybe if the designation were changed to (or interpreted as) a 'Listener
>> to
>>> Vox Populi' it may persuade Kieren to be a bit more open in the
>> discussions
>>> (and bit more thick skinned as well -; .... People working for
>> governance
>>> institutions and that too in a predominant 'Public interface' role
>> cannot
>>> afford to be thin skinned. And CS does tend to be a bit rough and
>>> indisciplined - that is its nature and maybe even its strength).
>> Openness +
>>> thick skin could be quite useful to gaining understanding of the issues
>> and
>>> different viewpoints and possible solutions. This logic would apply to
>>> others as well on the list which is one reason for this posting !
>>>
>>> Again like Meryem, I do not intend any personal attack, only that this
>> whole
>>> process of an employee of the main IG institution 'seeking feedback'
>> from an
>>> 'open' civil society mailing list, seeming to flirt with 'managing that
>>> feedback' within that list discussions appears a tad dangerous and
>> ironical.
>>> Whereas if criticism of ICANN were to be viewed as 'what are the
>> underlying
>>> concerns that prompt such criticism, what can be (or could be) done to
>>> resolve the issues raised, .... to make ICANN (or any relevant
>> equivalent /
>>> substitute) more representative/legitimate as well as effective
>> ..'  This
>>> would also encourage more people to come forward with their views,
>> rather
>>> than feeling that critical feedback is unwelcome.
>>>
>>> I once again request my friends to engage with critical comments in that
>>> light .... Caveat - this posting does not relate to purely personal
>> insults
>>> Regards,
>>> Guru
>>> Ps - Another irony of the charges of ad hominem is that Kieren's first
>>> posting to this list was a 'flame' containing verbal abuse of the list
>> and
>>> its participants :-). I guesss most of us are pots, in various shades of
>>> black
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:marzouki at ras.eu.org]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:42 PM
>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Innovation
>>>
>>> Hi Jacqueline,
>>>
>>> Le 28 nov. 07 à 12:40, Jacqueline A. Morris a écrit :
>>>
>>>>> Last but not least, it seems that an opinion on ICANN could only be
>>>>> valued if expressed within a given framework,
>>>> I agree - seems to me sometimes that it has to be from the currently
>>>> dominant NA/Euro perspective, but I'm OK with a given framework for
>>>> discussion as long as it serves the purpose of constructive dialogue.
>>> I also agree on this, but this was not my point, actually. I would say
>> that
>>> this (NA or Euro perspective -- as they're different) is due to the
>>> dominance of players from this area/perspective (no need to be from this
>>> geographical area to adopt such perspective: back to Frantz Fanon), and
>> this
>>> is by no way specific to ICANN discussions.
>>>
>>>>> from inside the institution, and in its own best interests (which are
>>>> equated to "the
>>>>> Internet's best interests").
>>>> I disagree, some of the most passionate opinions expressed to date in
>>>> this thread are most emphatically anti-current structure, and some
>>>> from outside the "institution" and some from ex-members of the
>>>> "institution".
>>> Actually, my last point (given framework + from inside + in ICANN best
>>> interests) was directly referring to numerous messages posted by Kieren,
>>> explicitely in his capacity of ICANN General Manager of Public
>>> Participation. No need to provide quotes, I think, specially since one
>> may
>>> look into the list archives. Kieren: no personal attack here, simply I
>> find
>>> very strange this approach to institutions.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Meryem
>>>
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> 
> 
> 

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