[governance] Irony

Thu Nov 29 17:00:32 EST 2007

Oxtail is good with anything! 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carlos Afonso [mailto:ca at rits.org.br]
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 14:54
> To: Rui Correia
> Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Subject: Re: [governance] Irony
> 
> Messing with, not "missing with", of course... :)
> 
> Ahhh, a hot plate of watercress with ox tail chunks... one of the best
> dishes of Rio! In Portuguese it is called "rabada com agrião", and must
> be accompanied by a caipirinha, of course.
> 
> abraços fraternos
> 
> --c.a.
> 
> Rui Correia wrote:
> > Broccolli is good for you and easy to work with - even beginners soon
> learn
> > how to maximise the benefits of working with it, what it goes well
> with etc.
> > Now, ICANN is like ox tail - not easy to work, and with so few
> successful
> > recipes, you are too scared to explore and experiment. So you end up
> > allowing the ox tail dictating how to work with it. And it doesn't go
> with
> > everything. Don't forget the toothpicks.
> >
> > Rui
> >
> > On 29/11/2007, Carlos Afonso <ca at rits.org.br> wrote:
> >> Ahh, broccolli, definitely not. I love broccolli and I do not admit
> >> anyone missing with it. Now, ICANN, hmmmm....
> >>
> >> --c.a.
> >>
> >> Kieren McCarthy wrote:
> >>>> As 'general manager of public participation', I wonder if Kieren
> is
> >>>> perhaps attempting to do precisely that - 'managing' the
> discussions
> >>>> (attempting to influence the range of 'allowable discourse') by
> >>>> pronouncing judgement on what is rude or 'personal criticism'.
> >>>
> >>> Damn you caught me out. That's exactly what I was trying to do.
> >>>
> >>> As such, I am afraid that, Guru, I hereafter ban you from
> discussing my
> >> role
> >>> in ICANN.
> >>>
> >>> I should say I am also considering banning all discussion of ICANN
> >> except
> >>> with my express permission. And then only on topics I get to
> decide.
> >>>
> >>> I never knew I had so much power. Can I stop people from discussing
> >> other
> >>> issues as well? Like broccoli.
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps it's best if everyone from now on simply send me an email
> >> outlining
> >>> what they would like to discuss and when. I am quite busy at the
> moment
> >> so
> >>> people should expect several days' delay before a response is
> granted.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Kieren
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Guru at ITfC [mailto:guru at itforchange.net]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:40 AM
> >>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [governance] Irony
> >>>
> >>> I was struck by an irony on reading Meryems' mail - on 'simply I
> find
> >> very
> >>> strange this approach to institutions'
> >>>
> >>> As 'general manager of public participation', I wonder if Kieren is
> >> perhaps
> >>> attempting to do precisely that - 'managing' the discussions
> (attempting
> >> to
> >>> influence the range of 'allowable discourse') by pronouncing
> judgement
> >> on
> >>> what is rude or 'personal criticism'. These attempts convey that
> >> substantive
> >>> criticism of ICANN has sometimes been considered 'ad hominem' or
> 'naïve'
> >>> (apparently premising on the belief that the alternative to ICANN
> can
> >> only
> >>> be 'Government control' which is ad-infinitum worse ..... and that
> all
> >>> discussions on IG need to necessarily be fully anchored within the
> >> current
> >>> ig structures) or has been simply ignored.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe if the designation were changed to (or interpreted as) a
> 'Listener
> >> to
> >>> Vox Populi' it may persuade Kieren to be a bit more open in the
> >> discussions
> >>> (and bit more thick skinned as well -; .... People working for
> >> governance
> >>> institutions and that too in a predominant 'Public interface' role
> >> cannot
> >>> afford to be thin skinned. And CS does tend to be a bit rough and
> >>> indisciplined - that is its nature and maybe even its strength).
> >> Openness +
> >>> thick skin could be quite useful to gaining understanding of the
> issues
> >> and
> >>> different viewpoints and possible solutions. This logic would apply
> to
> >>> others as well on the list which is one reason for this posting !
> >>>
> >>> Again like Meryem, I do not intend any personal attack, only that
> this
> >> whole
> >>> process of an employee of the main IG institution 'seeking
> feedback'
> >> from an
> >>> 'open' civil society mailing list, seeming to flirt with 'managing
> that
> >>> feedback' within that list discussions appears a tad dangerous and
> >> ironical.
> >>> Whereas if criticism of ICANN were to be viewed as 'what are the
> >> underlying
> >>> concerns that prompt such criticism, what can be (or could be) done
> to
> >>> resolve the issues raised, .... to make ICANN (or any relevant
> >> equivalent /
> >>> substitute) more representative/legitimate as well as effective
> >> ..'  This
> >>> would also encourage more people to come forward with their views,
> >> rather
> >>> than feeling that critical feedback is unwelcome.
> >>>
> >>> I once again request my friends to engage with critical comments in
> that
> >>> light .... Caveat - this posting does not relate to purely personal
> >> insults
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Guru
> >>> Ps - Another irony of the charges of ad hominem is that Kieren's
> first
> >>> posting to this list was a 'flame' containing verbal abuse of the
> list
> >> and
> >>> its participants :-). I guesss most of us are pots, in various
> shades of
> >>> black
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:marzouki at ras.eu.org]
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:42 PM
> >>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [governance] Innovation
> >>>
> >>> Hi Jacqueline,
> >>>
> >>> Le 28 nov. 07 à 12:40, Jacqueline A. Morris a écrit :
> >>>
> >>>>> Last but not least, it seems that an opinion on ICANN could only
> be
> >>>>> valued if expressed within a given framework,
> >>>> I agree - seems to me sometimes that it has to be from the
> currently
> >>>> dominant NA/Euro perspective, but I'm OK with a given framework
> for
> >>>> discussion as long as it serves the purpose of constructive
> dialogue.
> >>> I also agree on this, but this was not my point, actually. I would
> say
> >> that
> >>> this (NA or Euro perspective -- as they're different) is due to the
> >>> dominance of players from this area/perspective (no need to be from
> this
> >>> geographical area to adopt such perspective: back to Frantz Fanon),
> and
> >> this
> >>> is by no way specific to ICANN discussions.
> >>>
> >>>>> from inside the institution, and in its own best interests (which
> are
> >>>> equated to "the
> >>>>> Internet's best interests").
> >>>> I disagree, some of the most passionate opinions expressed to date
> in
> >>>> this thread are most emphatically anti-current structure, and some
> >>>> from outside the "institution" and some from ex-members of the
> >>>> "institution".
> >>> Actually, my last point (given framework + from inside + in ICANN
> best
> >>> interests) was directly referring to numerous messages posted by
> Kieren,
> >>> explicitely in his capacity of ICANN General Manager of Public
> >>> Participation. No need to provide quotes, I think, specially since
> one
> >> may
> >>> look into the list archives. Kieren: no personal attack here,
> simply I
> >> find
> >>> very strange this approach to institutions.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Meryem
> >>>
> >>> ____________________________________________________________
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> >>>
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> >>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> >>>
> >>> ____________________________________________________________
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> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>
> >> ____________________________________________________________
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> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> 
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