No subject
Thu Jan 13 08:49:26 EST 2022
doesn't have any operational processes or related significant structures of
accountability so it can't handle even the most insignificant of challenges
without some form of full on offensive/defensive onslaught or it simply
ignores the issue and moves on. Nor can it handle even the most
inconsequential of divergences/diversities of opinion-the drive towards
convergence/consensus (and the associated processes of marginalization and
exclusion) are terrifying to me if there were any real chance of scaling.
In the last century we had a lot of experience (and several names) for
political systems that couldn't deal with challenge, divergence, conflict
and insisted on a managed consensus and forced choices "or else.
Democracy and multi-lateralism both have many many flaws but they have both
taken us a considerable distance down roads that allow us to be where we are
now and thinking about significant and desirable ways forward into much more
complex decision environments. Moreover we now have (the possibility of
using) new tools to support the extending of democratic capabilities, the
broader inclusion of diversities, the extension of opportunities for
effective participation to previously marginalized populations.
I see absolutely no reason for civil society to be uncritically supporting
MSism as is obviously currently the case. To my mind this goes against
everything that CS has traditionally stood for-the broadening and deepening
of accountability in support of the public good, the strengthening of
democracy including through its extension to the poor and marginalized, the
developing of public processes and methods to control the unaccountable use
of private power in opposition to the public interest.
MSism is in its essence a form of privatization of power-shifting of power
from the hands of people (however flawed that might be) to the hands of
those who for the most part are unaccountable and non-transparent in their
actions, their internal operations and in their structures.
I would love to see some demonstration that I am wrong or that I've missed
something but another round of "trust them/us" is not going to cut it.
Mike
From: Andrew Puddephatt [mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org]
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 6:14 PM
To: michael gurstein; governance at lists.igcaucus.org; 'Jeremy Malcolm';
'parminder'
Cc: bestbits at lists.bestbits.net
Subject: Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net
Michael
Those of us less clever than you are trying to figure out how to make
governance of a global system more equitable and transparent and
accountable. Clearly we failed.
Can you explain to me how an international inter state process is
democratic, assuming that is what you believe (and if not what is your
democratic alternative to the submissions on BB?). How are my interests
represented by inter state discussions, or those of Chinese or Russian
citizens, or women in Saudi Arabia or Canadian academics?
From: michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
Reply-To: michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 23:57
To: "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Jeremy
Malcolm <Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au>, "parminder at itforchange.net"
<parminder at itforchange.net>
Cc: "<bestbits at lists. net <mailto:bestbits at lists.%20net> >"
<bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>
Subject: RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net
I see, so in your world democracy (however flawed), is to be replaced by
Multistakeholderism where there is no (evident) transparency (T) or
accountability (A) for the inputs into the stakeholder processes, no
(evident) T or A for the outputs of the stakeholder processes and the
stakeholders themselves are subject to no effective T or A since they are
some sort of (interglalactic?) shapeshifters errr. those with "role
flexibilities".
Have I missed something here?
This may work for a Wizard of Oz space like 1Net where even as the curtain
gets repeatedly bunched up revealing the ("non-existent"-we have it on the
highest possible authority-trust us) wizard pulling the strings and T & A
appears to consist of repeated choruses of "trust them it will get better"
by a fawning self-selected "Steering Committee", but surely in our world we
might expect something with a slightly higher reality component.
M
From:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
[mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Malcolm
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 4:21 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; parminder
Cc: <,bestbits at lists.bestbits.net <mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>>
>,
Subject: Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions
launched for endorsement at bestbits.net
On 5 Mar 2014, at 7:49 pm, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
So, request a clear response - do you mean parity in decision making about
public policies between gov and non gov actors.... And this is not a petty
point... Half of the time of the WGEC got taken on this kind of discussion.
This is the single most important point today, if we can clarify nd possibly
agree on this point - rest is not too difficult... Lets accept what is the
key point, and not skirt it...
Different people who contributed to the submission, even if they all endorse
the final result, will probably give you different answers to that question.
I'm not sure that anyone is interested in what my personal answer is because
I'm just an individual, but I would say no I do not accept as a general
proposition that parity in decision making is appropriate, which is why I
personally objected to that language being used.
For some issues, it will be appropriate that the stakeholders act as equals
in the decision making process (to the extent that there is a "decision" at
all). In other areas, it won't be appropriate and may be more appropriate
that although all stakeholders are involved, one of them will legitimately
take a bigger role than the others. For example governments may take a
leading role in transnational human rights disputes, the technical community
may do so in developing spam filtering standards, civil society may do so in
developing human rights based principles for judging government surveillance
practices, and even the private sector may do so, say in setting prices for
the trading of IPv4 addresses.
This also implies that the appropriate mechanism of governance may differ in
each case, eg. laws, standards, markets. The above all follows naturally if
you accept that there are no fixed stakeholder roles, because the
appropriate roles will differ depending on the circumstances.
BTW, the German government has the following to say in its submission to
NetMundial
...
Do you for instance agree to the above formulation, or NOT...
Nope, don't agree with the German government's formulation because it
maintains the fallacy of fixed stakeholder roles.
--
Jeremy Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B Com
Internet lawyer, ICT policy advocate, geek
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ah…=
the “if I ruled the world” challenge… yes, flattering bu=
t ultimately inconsequential… I don’t (thank god) rule the worl=
d… So my off the cuff solutions aren’t worth all that much̷=
0;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I did a major project in sub-Saharan Afric=
a last year with Mwaki among others addressing more or less this very quest=
ion… and the answer was… it’s complicated…<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'>It involved strengthening broad structures of governa=
nce, putting technology infrastructures into (the right) place(s), training=
, developing appropriate mechanisms for consultation/decision making…=
And yes the answer was multi-stakeholder … but… not multistake=
holderist… multi-stakeholder within a context which could accommodate=
and contain and make multi-stakeholder consultation and participation mean=
ingful and useful for all concerned including to strengthen democratic gove=
rnance and particularly figuring out how to get governmental structures to =
adapt and respond. To some degree this would be done in parallel to existin=
g democratic processes but interwoven with them to use the democracy to rei=
nforce the consultations and the consultations to deepen and reinforce the =
democracy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sorry if this is tedious and not g=
lib enough for you but given world enough and time my guess is that this ki=
nd of thing could work as well in Ouagadougou as in downtown Tehran… =
not sure about Hackney/Georgetown but it seems to work well enough in Teesi=
de and if we can get these things to work in Ouga and Tehran and Teeside &#=
8211; well “first we take Manhattan and then we take Berlin.. *<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif";color:#1F497D'>(And BTW it’s not me who is agitating to jet=
tison 300 or so years of democracy in favour of some pig in a poke hatched =
in some US think tank and being foisted on the world by a self-interested c=
abal of the US State Department, Google, various other OECD private c=
orps, and certain selected “civil society” organizations includ=
ing your own it would appear**<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4=
97D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>*Leonard Cohen=
.. <a href=3D"http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/First-We-Take-Ma=
nhattan-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85">http://www.s=
ing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/First-We-Take-Manhattan-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926=
CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>**</span><s=
pan style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>TOWARD A SINGLE GLOBAL DIG=
ITAL ECONOMY http://www.aspeninstitute.org/sites/default/files/content/uplo=
ad/Toward_a_Single_Global_Digital_Economy_Aspen_IDEA_Project_0.pdf<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></sp=
an></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;paddin=
g:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Andrew Puddephatt [mailto:And=
rew at gp-digital.org] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:08 PM<br><=
b>To:</b> michael gurstein; governance at lists.igcaucus.org; 'Jeremy Malcolm'=
; 'parminder'<br><b>Cc:</b> bestbits at lists.bestbits.net<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for e=
ndorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I’m sorry M=
ike – you are not answering the question. If you mean by multi-=
lateralism, negotiations about a global environment conducted by states I w=
ant to know - not why you think multi-stakeholderism is crap - which you ha=
ve discussed with all of us at great and increasingly tedious length - but =
what js your democratic alternative that allows my interests – or any=
other citizens to be represented in global negotiations?<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:black'>Those you disagree with are looking for ways=
to ensure a broader range of voices – including states of course as =
the most powerful actors- in the governance debate.<o:p></o:p></span></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";color:black'>Put your option up for discussion and let’s =
see how democratic that is to the resident of downtown Tehran (or even Hack=
ney where I live)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:sol=
id #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Fr=
om: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:black'>michael gurstein <<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.c=
om">gurstein at gmail.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, 6 March 2014 02:57=
<br><b>To: </b>andrew Puddephatt <<a href=3D"mailto:andrew at gp-digital.or=
g">andrew at gp-digital.org</a>>, "<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.=
igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto=
:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, Jere=
my Malcolm <<a href=3D"mailto:Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au=
</a>>, "<a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itfo=
rchange.net</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parm=
inder at itforchange.net</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"<<a href=3D"mailto:bes=
tbits at lists.%20net">bestbits at lists. net</a>>" <<a href=3D"mailto=
:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a>><br><b>Sub=
ject: </b>RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions laun=
ched for endorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:#1F497D'>Andrew (and Suresh…</span><span style=3D'color:black=
'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span styl=
e=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Those a=
re quite legitimate points/questions and very much worthy of serious discus=
sion and debate. </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>However, evoking (over and over =
and over…) the undefined, undescribed, undetailed multistakeholderist=
mantra doesn’t get us any closer… </span><span style=3D'color:=
black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span=
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Th=
e continuous shapeshifting by the proponents of the MS meme whenever they a=
re challenged to get real --well this isn’t quite “MSism”=
, it isn’t true MSism, it will be better next time MSism, doesn’=
;t do anyone a service (except the “wizards” behind the curtain=
s). </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>From my own experience, whenever MSism “=
;gets real” it falls apart—either it doesn’t have any ope=
rational processes or related significant structures of accountability so i=
t can’t handle even the most insignificant of challenges without some=
form of full on offensive/defensive onslaught or it simply ignores the iss=
ue and moves on. Nor can it handle even the most inconsequential of diverge=
nces/diversities of opinion—the drive towards convergence/consensus (=
and the associated processes of marginalization and exclusion) are terrifyi=
ng to me if there were any real chance of scaling. In the last centur=
y we had a lot of experience (and several names) for political systems that=
couldn’t deal with challenge, divergence, conflict and insisted on a=
managed consensus and forced choices “or else… </span><span st=
yle=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbs=
p;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'>Democracy and multi-lateralism both have many many flaws but th=
ey have both taken us a considerable distance down roads that allow us to b=
e where we are now and thinking about significant and desirable ways forwar=
d into much more complex decision environments. Moreover we now have (the p=
ossibility of using) new tools to support the extending of democratic capab=
ilities, the broader inclusion of diversities, the extension of opportuniti=
es for effective participation to previously marginalized populations.</spa=
n><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4=
97D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1F497D'>I see absolutely no reason for civil society to be unc=
ritically supporting MSism as is obviously currently the case. To my mind t=
his goes against everything that CS has traditionally stood for—the b=
roadening and deepening of accountability in support of the public good, th=
e strengthening of democracy including through its extension to the poor an=
d marginalized, the developing of public processes and methods to control t=
he unaccountable use of private power in opposition to the public interest.=
</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo=
r:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>MSism is in its essence a form of privatization =
of power—shifting of power from the hands of people (however flawed t=
hat might be) to the hands of those who for the most part are unaccountable=
and non-transparent in their actions, their internal operations and in the=
ir structures.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I would love to see some demonstrat=
ion that I am wrong or that I’ve missed something but another round o=
f “trust them/us” is not going to cut it.</span><span style=3D'=
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span=
><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F49=
7D'>Mike</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black=
'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span styl=
e=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;bord=
er-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:=
black'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma"=
,"sans-serif";color:black'> Andrew Puddephatt [<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew at gp-=
digital.org">mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, =
March 05, 2014 6:14 PM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a href=3D"mailto:go=
vernance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>; 'Jeremy Mal=
colm'; 'parminder'<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.=
net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re=
: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for endorsement at bestb=
its.net</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Michael</span><span style=3D'color:black'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><s=
pan style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:black'>Those of us less clever than you are trying to figure out how to =
make governance of a global system more equitable and transparent and accou=
ntable. Clearly we failed.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o=
:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Can you explain to me how an international inter state process is democrat=
ic, assuming that is what you believe (and if not what is your democratic a=
lternative to the submissions on BB?). How are my interests represent=
ed by inter state discussions, or those of Chinese or Russian citizens, or =
women in Saudi Arabia or Canadian academics? </span><span style=3D'col=
or:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> =
</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0=
in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>michael gurstein <=
;<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurstein at gmail.com</a>><br><b>Rep=
ly-To: </b>michael gurstein <<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurst=
ein at gmail.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 5 March 2014 23:57<br><b>T=
o: </b>"<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at li=
sts.igcaucus.org</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.=
org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, Jeremy Malcolm <<a href=3D"m=
ailto:Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au</a>>, "<a href=3D"=
mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>" <<=
a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>&g=
t;<br><b>Cc: </b>"<<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.%20net">bestbit=
s at lists. net</a>>" <<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.ne=
t">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] =
Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for endorsement at bes=
tbits.net</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I see, so in yo=
ur world democracy (however flawed), is to be replaced by Multistakeholderi=
sm where there is no (evident) transparency (T) or accountability (A) for t=
he inputs into the stakeholder processes, no (evident) T or A for the outpu=
ts of the stakeholder processes and the stakeholders themselves are s=
ubject to no effective T or A since they are some sort of (interglalactic?)=
shapeshifters errr… those with “role flexibilities”.</sp=
an><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'>Have I missed something here?</span><span style=3D'co=
lor:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><=
span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D=
'>This may work for a Wizard of Oz space like 1Net where even as the curtai=
n gets repeatedly bunched up revealing the (“non-existent”̵=
2;we have it on the highest possible authority—trust us) wizard pulli=
ng the strings and T & A appears to consist of repeated choruses of =
220;trust them it will get better” by a fawning self-selected “=
Steering Committee”, but surely in our world we might expect somethin=
g with a slightly higher reality component.</span><span style=3D'color:blac=
k'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span sty=
le=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</s=
pan><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1=
F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div>=
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><a href=3D"mailto:=
governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request at lists.igcaucus.or=
g</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:gove=
rnance-request at lists.igcaucus.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Malcolm<b=
r><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 4:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"m=
ailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>; par=
minder<br><b>Cc:</b> <,<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net&=
amp;gt">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net></a>,<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [gov=
ernance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for endorseme=
nt at bestbits.net</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>On 5 Mar 201=
4, at 7:49 pm, parminder <<a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">p=
arminder at itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>So, request =
a clear response - do you mean <b><i>parity</i></b> in <b><i>decision makin=
g</i></b> about <b><i>public policies </i></b>between gov and non gov actor=
s.... And this is not a petty point... Half of the time of the WGEC got tak=
en on this kind of discussion. This is the single most important point toda=
y, if we can clarify nd possibly agree on this point - rest is not too diff=
icult... Lets accept what is the key point, and not skirt it...<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'=
> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'color:black'>Different people who contributed to the submission, even if t=
hey all endorse the final result, will probably give you different answers =
to that question. I'm not sure that anyone is interested in what my p=
ersonal answer is because I'm just an individual, but I would say no I do n=
ot accept as a general proposition that parity in decision making is approp=
riate, which is why I personally objected to that language being used.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black=
'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:black'>For some issues, it will be appropriate that the stakehold=
ers act as equals in the decision making process (to the extent that there =
is a "decision" at all). In other areas, it won't be approp=
riate and may be more appropriate that although all stakeholders are involv=
ed, one of them will legitimately take a bigger role than the others.  =
;For example governments may take a leading role in transnational human rig=
hts disputes, the technical community may do so in developing spam filterin=
g standards, civil society may do so in developing human rights based princ=
iples for judging government surveillance practices, and even the private s=
ector may do so, say in setting prices for the trading of IPv4 addresses.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:bl=
ack'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'color:black'>This also implies that the appropriate mechanism of gover=
nance may differ in each case, eg. laws, standards, markets. The abov=
e all follows naturally if you accept that there are no fixed stakeholder r=
oles, because the appropriate roles will differ depending on the circumstan=
ces.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:b=
lack'><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
style=3D'color:black'>BTW, the German government has the following to say =
in its submission to NetMundial<br><br>...<br><br>Do you for instance agree=
to the above formulation, or NOT...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>Nope, don't agree with t=
he German government's formulation because it maintains the fallacy of fixe=
d stakeholder roles.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><div><div>=
<div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>--</span><span style=3D'colo=
r:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Jerem=
y Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B Com</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;=
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Internet lawyer, ICT poli=
cy advocate, geek</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"=
Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>host -t NAPTR 5.9.8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.<a=
href=3D"http://e164.org">e164.org</a>|awk -F! '{print $3}'</span><span sty=
le=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:bl=
ack'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dapple-style-span><span style=3D'font-fami=
ly:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>WARNING: This email has not been e=
ncrypted. You are strongly recommended to enable encryption at your end. Fo=
r instructions, see <a href=3D"http://jere.my/l/pgp">http://jere.my/l/pgp</=
a>.</span></span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></=
div></div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black=
'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>=
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