No subject
Thu Jan 13 08:49:26 EST 2022
related significant structures of accountability so it can=E2=80=99t handle=
even the most insignificant of challenges without some form of full on off=
ensive/defensive onslaught or it simply ignores the issue and moves on. Nor=
can it handle even the most inconsequential of divergences/diversities of =
opinion=E2=80=94the drive towards convergence/consensus (and the associated=
processes of marginalization and exclusion) are terrifying to me if there =
were any real chance of scaling. In the last century we had a lot of exper=
ience (and several names) for political systems that couldn=E2=80=99t deal =
with challenge, divergence, conflict and insisted on a managed consensus an=
d forced choices =E2=80=9Cor else=E2=80=A6=20
=20
Democracy and multi-lateralism both have many many flaws but they have both=
taken us a considerable distance down roads that allow us to be where we a=
re now and thinking about significant and desirable ways forward into much =
more complex decision environments. Moreover we now have (the possibility o=
f using) new tools to support the extending of democratic capabilities, the=
broader inclusion of diversities, the extension of opportunities for effec=
tive participation to previously marginalized populations.
=20
I see absolutely no reason for civil society to be uncritically supporting =
MSism as is obviously currently the case. To my mind this goes against ever=
ything that CS has traditionally stood for=E2=80=94the broadening and deepe=
ning of accountability in support of the public good, the strengthening of =
democracy including through its extension to the poor and marginalized, the=
developing of public processes and methods to control the unaccountable us=
e of private power in opposition to the public interest.=20
=20
MSism is in its essence a form of privatization of power=E2=80=94shifting o=
f power from the hands of people (however flawed that might be) to the hand=
s of those who for the most part are unaccountable and non-transparent in t=
heir actions, their internal operations and in their structures.
=20
I would love to see some demonstration that I am wrong or that I=E2=80=99ve=
missed something but another round of =E2=80=9Ctrust them/us=E2=80=9D is n=
ot going to cut it.
=20
Mike
=20
=20
=20
From: Andrew Puddephatt [mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org]=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 6:14 PM
To: michael gurstein; governance at lists.igcaucus.org; 'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'par=
minder'
Cc: bestbits at lists.bestbits.net
Subject: Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launc=
hed for endorsement at bestbits.net
=20
Michael
=20
Those of us less clever than you are trying to figure out how to make gover=
nance of a global system more equitable and transparent and accountable. C=
learly we failed.
=20
Can you explain to me how an international inter state process is democrati=
c, assuming that is what you believe (and if not what is your democratic al=
ternative to the submissions on BB?). How are my interests represented by =
inter state discussions, or those of Chinese or Russian citizens, or women =
in Saudi Arabia or Canadian academics?=20
=20
=20
=20=20
=20
From: michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
Reply-To: michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 23:57
To: "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Jeremy=
Malcolm <Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au>, "parminder at itforchange.net" <parminder at itf=
orchange.net>
Cc: "<bestbits at lists. net <mailto:bestbits at lists.%20net> >" <bestbits at lists=
.bestbits.net>
Subject: RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launc=
hed for endorsement at bestbits.net
=20
I see, so in your world democracy (however flawed), is to be replaced by Mu=
ltistakeholderism where there is no (evident) transparency (T) or accountab=
ility (A) for the inputs into the stakeholder processes, no (evident) T or =
A for the outputs of the stakeholder processes and the stakeholders themse=
lves are subject to no effective T or A since they are some sort of (interg=
lalactic?) shapeshifters errr=E2=80=A6 those with =E2=80=9Crole flexibiliti=
es=E2=80=9D.
=20
Have I missed something here?
=20
This may work for a Wizard of Oz space like 1Net where even as the curtain =
gets repeatedly bunched up revealing the (=E2=80=9Cnon-existent=E2=80=9D=E2=
=80=94we have it on the highest possible authority=E2=80=94trust us) wizard=
pulling the strings and T & A appears to consist of repeated choruses of =
=E2=80=9Ctrust them it will get better=E2=80=9D by a fawning self-selected =
=E2=80=9CSteering Committee=E2=80=9D, but surely in our world we might expe=
ct something with a slightly higher reality component.
=20
M
=20
From:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists=
.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Malcolm
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 4:21 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; parminder
Cc: <,bestbits at lists.bestbits.net <mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>>=
>,
Subject: Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launc=
hed for endorsement at bestbits.net
=20
On 5 Mar 2014, at 7:49 pm, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
So, request a clear response - do you mean parity in decision making about =
public policies between gov and non gov actors.... And this is not a petty =
point... Half of the time of the WGEC got taken on this kind of discussion.=
This is the single most important point today, if we can clarify nd possib=
ly agree on this point - rest is not too difficult... Lets accept what is t=
he key point, and not skirt it...
=20
Different people who contributed to the submission, even if they all endors=
e the final result, will probably give you different answers to that questi=
on. I'm not sure that anyone is interested in what my personal answer is b=
ecause I'm just an individual, but I would say no I do not accept as a gene=
ral proposition that parity in decision making is appropriate, which is why=
I personally objected to that language being used.
=20
For some issues, it will be appropriate that the stakeholders act as equals=
in the decision making process (to the extent that there is a "decision" a=
t all). In other areas, it won't be appropriate and may be more appropriat=
e that although all stakeholders are involved, one of them will legitimatel=
y take a bigger role than the others. For example governments may take a l=
eading role in transnational human rights disputes, the technical community=
may do so in developing spam filtering standards, civil society may do so =
in developing human rights based principles for judging government surveill=
ance practices, and even the private sector may do so, say in setting price=
s for the trading of IPv4 addresses.
=20
This also implies that the appropriate mechanism of governance may differ i=
n each case, eg. laws, standards, markets. The above all follows naturally=
if you accept that there are no fixed stakeholder roles, because the appro=
priate roles will differ depending on the circumstances.
BTW, the German government has the following to say in its submission to Ne=
tMundial
...
Do you for instance agree to the above formulation, or NOT...
=20
Nope, don't agree with the German government's formulation because it maint=
ains the fallacy of fixed stakeholder roles.
=20
--
Jeremy Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B Com
Internet lawyer, ICT policy advocate, geek
host -t NAPTR 5.9.8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.e164.org|awk -F! '{print $3}'
=20
WARNING: This email has not been encrypted. You are strongly recommended to=
enable encryption at your end. For instructions, see http://jere.my/l/pgp.
=20
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Insults b=
y the by (not really sure what you are seeing as an insult.. but anyway=E2=
=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I=E2=80=99ve taken the trouble here an=
d elsewhere to lay out some, what I think are serious issues concerning MSi=
sm=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I=E2=80=99m still waiting for you=
or anyone to make some significant counters to those arguments or even add=
ress them in some serious way (something with a bit more substance than red=
herrings about Chinese billionaires and Mr. Cameron=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:#1F497D'>The US submission to the NETMundial refers to =E2=80=9CMSi=
sm=E2=80=9D <b><u>9 times</u></b> in less than a page (it doesn=E2=80=99t m=
ention democracy even once).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You are evidentl=
y a strong supporter of MSism. Perhaps you could give me a response t=
o my comments/criticisms or suggest how my arguments are incorrect or my ex=
periences are inconclusive.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D=
'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tks,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p=
> </o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5=
C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Andrew Pud=
dephatt [mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05=
, 2014 8:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein; governance at lists.igcaucus.or=
g; 'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br><b>Cc:</b> bestbits at lists.bestbits.net<=
br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submiss=
ions launched for endorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'color:black'>Actually, far from being tedious, there are intere=
sting and multi stakeholder ideas in your proposition which in a different =
place and in a different mood would be good to explore.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>Unfortunately your ide=
as don=E2=80=99t seem to be on the table in the WGEC or WSIS reviews and I =
doubt that the nine billionaires who run the Chinese Communist party, the S=
upreme Leader of Iran, Mr Putin or Mr Cameron my own prime minister would b=
e too interested. So I=E2=80=99d rather not see them in control of th=
e internet thank you very much =E2=80=93 which was inter state governance w=
ould mean (as opposed to ushering in a new era of global democracy). =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:black'>As it happens I=E2=80=99ve spent thirty years trying to pr=
omote democracy and human rights so your gratuitous insults wash off me but=
I=E2=80=99m curious as to why you feel the need to insult anyone who disag=
rees with you? It is not an effective means of persuasion in my=
experience so I suggest we terminate this exchange from now.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p> </o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;=
padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blac=
k'>michael gurstein <<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurstein at gmai=
l.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, 6 March 2014 04:02<br><b>To: </b>an=
drew Puddephatt <<a href=3D"mailto:andrew at gp-digital.org">andrew at gp-digi=
tal.org</a>>, "<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">gov=
ernance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists=
.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, Jeremy Malcolm <<a=
href=3D"mailto:Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au</a>>, "<=
a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>&q=
uot; <<a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange=
.net</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"<<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.%20ne=
t">bestbits at lists. net</a>>" <<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.b=
estbits.net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [go=
vernance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for endorsem=
ent at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blac=
k'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>=
Ah=E2=80=A6 the =E2=80=9Cif I ruled the world=E2=80=9D challenge=E2=80=A6 y=
es, flattering but ultimately inconsequential=E2=80=A6 I don=E2=80=99t (tha=
nk god) rule the world=E2=80=A6 So my off the cuff solutions aren=E2=80=99t=
worth all that much=E2=80=A6</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:bl=
ack'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I did a major projec=
t in sub-Saharan Africa last year with Mwaki among others addressing more o=
r less this very question=E2=80=A6 and the answer was=E2=80=A6 it=E2=80=99s=
complicated=E2=80=A6</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It involved strengthening br=
oad structures of governance, putting technology infrastructures into (the =
right) place(s), training, developing appropriate mechanisms for consultati=
on/decision making=E2=80=A6 And yes the answer was multi-stakeholder =E2=80=
=A6 but=E2=80=A6 not multistakeholderist=E2=80=A6 multi-stakeholder within =
a context which could accommodate and contain and make multi-stakeholder co=
nsultation and participation meaningful and useful for all concerned includ=
ing to strengthen democratic governance and particularly figuring out how t=
o get governmental structures to adapt and respond. To some degree this wou=
ld be done in parallel to existing democratic processes but interwoven with=
them to use the democracy to reinforce the consultations and the consultat=
ions to deepen and reinforce the democracy.</span><span style=3D'color:blac=
k'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span sty=
le=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sorr=
y if this is tedious and not glib enough for you but given world enough and=
time my guess is that this kind of thing could work as well in Ouagadougou=
as in downtown Tehran=E2=80=A6 not sure about Hackney/Georgetown but it se=
ems to work well enough in Teeside and if we can get these things to work i=
n Ouga and Tehran and Teeside =E2=80=93 well =E2=80=9Cfirst we take Manhatt=
an and then we take Berlin.. *</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:b=
lack'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(And BTW it=E2=80=
=99s not me who is agitating to jettison 300 or so years of democracy in fa=
vour of some pig in a poke hatched in some US think tank and being foisted =
on the world by a self-interested cabal of the US State Department, Google,=
various other OECD private corps, and certain selected =E2=80=9Ccivi=
l society=E2=80=9D organizations including your own it would appear**</span=
><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F49=
7D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>*Leonard Cohen.. <a href=3D"http://www.sing365.co=
m/music/lyric.nsf/First-We-Take-Manhattan-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F=
308848256AF00028CB85">http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/First-We-Take-=
Manhattan-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85</a></span><=
span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D=
'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>**</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-ser=
if";color:black'>TOWARD A SINGLE GLOBAL DIGITAL ECONOMY <a href=3D"http://w=
ww.aspeninstitute.org/sites/default/files/content/upload/Toward_a_Single_Gl=
obal_Digital_Economy_Aspen_IDEA_Project_0.pdf">http://www.aspeninstitute.or=
g/sites/default/files/content/upload/Toward_a_Single_Global_Digital_Economy=
_Aspen_IDEA_Project_0.pdf</a></span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:bl=
ack'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span s=
tyle=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</s=
pan><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1=
F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div>=
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Andrew Puddephatt=
[<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org</a>=
] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:08 PM<br><b>To:</b> michael =
gurstein; <a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists=
.igcaucus.org</a>; 'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"m=
ailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Su=
bject:</b> Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions lau=
nched for endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:=
p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:bl=
ack'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I=E2=80=99m=
sorry Mike </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sa=
ns-serif";color:black'>=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD</span><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> you are not =
answering the question. If you mean by multi-lateralism, negotiations=
about a global environment conducted by states I want to know - not why yo=
u think multi-stakeholderism is crap - which you have discussed with all of=
us at great and increasingly tedious length - but what js your democratic =
alternative that allows my interests =E2=80=93 or any other citizens to be =
represented in global negotiations?</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span st=
yle=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:bla=
ck'>Those you disagree with are looking for ways to ensure a broader range =
of voices =E2=80=93 including states of course as the most powerful actors-=
in the governance debate.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'co=
lor:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Put y=
our option up for discussion and let=E2=80=99s see how democratic that is t=
o the resident of downtown Tehran (or even Hackney where I live)</span><spa=
n style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></di=
v><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>michael gurst=
ein <<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurstein at gmail.com</a>><br=
><b>Date: </b>Thursday, 6 March 2014 02:57<br><b>To: </b>andrew Puddephatt =
<<a href=3D"mailto:andrew at gp-digital.org">andrew at gp-digital.org</a>>,=
"<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.ig=
caucus.org</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">g=
overnance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, Jeremy Malcolm <<a href=3D"mailto:=
Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au</a>>, "<a href=3D"mailto=
:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>" <<a href=
=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>><br>=
<b>Cc: </b>"<<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.%20net">bestbits at list=
s. net</a>>" <<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net">bes=
tbits at lists.bestbits.net</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] Re: [b=
estbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for endorsement at bestbits.=
net</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andrew (and Suresh=E2=
=80=A6</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Those are quite legitimate points/questions=
and very much worthy of serious discussion and debate. </span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </=
span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>However, evoking (over and over and over=E2=80=A6) the undefined, u=
ndescribed, undetailed multistakeholderist mantra doesn=E2=80=99t get us an=
y closer=E2=80=A6 </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The continuous shapeshifting by=
the proponents of the MS meme whenever they are challenged to get real --w=
ell this isn=E2=80=99t quite =E2=80=9CMSism=E2=80=9D, it isn=E2=80=99t true=
MSism, it will be better next time MSism, doesn=E2=80=99t do anyone a serv=
ice (except the =E2=80=9Cwizards=E2=80=9D behind the curtains). </span><spa=
n style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&=
nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'>From my own experience, whenever MSism =E2=80=9Cgets real=E2=
=80=9D it falls apart=E2=80=94either it doesn=E2=80=99t have any operationa=
l processes or related significant structures of accountability so it can=
=E2=80=99t handle even the most insignificant of challenges without some fo=
rm of full on offensive/defensive onslaught or it simply ignores the issue =
and moves on. Nor can it handle even the most inconsequential of divergence=
s/diversities of opinion=E2=80=94the drive towards convergence/consensus (a=
nd the associated processes of marginalization and exclusion) are terrifyin=
g to me if there were any real chance of scaling. In the last century=
we had a lot of experience (and several names) for political systems that =
couldn=E2=80=99t deal with challenge, divergence, conflict and insisted on =
a managed consensus and forced choices =E2=80=9Cor else=E2=80=A6 </span><sp=
an style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>=
</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'>Democracy and multi-lateralism both have many many flaws bu=
t they have both taken us a considerable distance down roads that allow us =
to be where we are now and thinking about significant and desirable ways fo=
rward into much more complex decision environments. Moreover we now have (t=
he possibility of using) new tools to support the extending of democratic c=
apabilities, the broader inclusion of diversities, the extension of opportu=
nities for effective participation to previously marginalized populations.<=
/span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif";color:#1F497D'>I see absolutely no reason for civil society to be=
uncritically supporting MSism as is obviously currently the case. To my mi=
nd this goes against everything that CS has traditionally stood for=E2=80=
=94the broadening and deepening of accountability in support of the public =
good, the strengthening of democracy including through its extension to the=
poor and marginalized, the developing of public processes and methods to c=
ontrol the unaccountable use of private power in opposition to the public i=
nterest. </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>MSism is in its essence a form of priva=
tization of power=E2=80=94shifting of power from the hands of people (howev=
er flawed that might be) to the hands of those who for the most part are un=
accountable and non-transparent in their actions, their internal operations=
and in their structures.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I would love to see some=
demonstration that I am wrong or that I=E2=80=99ve missed something but an=
other round of =E2=80=9Ctrust them/us=E2=80=9D is not going to cut it.</spa=
n><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4=
97D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1F497D'>Mike</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </=
span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'b=
order:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","san=
s-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Andrew Puddephatt [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Andrew at gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org</a>] <br><b>Sent:<=
/b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 6:14 PM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</=
a>; 'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:bestbits@=
lists.bestbits.net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for endor=
sement at bestbits.net</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p=
></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Michael</span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:black'>Those of us less clever than you are trying to fi=
gure out how to make governance of a global system more equitable and trans=
parent and accountable. Clearly we failed.</span><span style=3D'color=
:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> =
</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:black'>Can you explain to me how an international inter state p=
rocess is democratic, assuming that is what you believe (and if not what is=
your democratic alternative to the submissions on BB?). How are my i=
nterests represented by inter state discussions, or those of Chinese or Rus=
sian citizens, or women in Saudi Arabia or Canadian academics? </span>=
<span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:blac=
k'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <=
/span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;paddin=
g:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>mic=
hael gurstein <<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurstein at gmail.com<=
/a>><br><b>Reply-To: </b>michael gurstein <<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein=
@gmail.com">gurstein at gmail.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 5 March 2=
014 23:57<br><b>To: </b>"<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.o=
rg">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:governanc=
e at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, Jeremy Malcolm=
<<a href=3D"mailto:Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au</a>>, =
"<a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.ne=
t</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itfo=
rchange.net</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"<<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at list=
s.%20net">bestbits at lists. net</a>>" <<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits@=
lists.bestbits.net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>=
RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for e=
ndorsement at bestbits.net</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'co=
lor:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D=
'>I see, so in your world democracy (however flawed), is to be replaced by =
Multistakeholderism where there is no (evident) transparency (T) or account=
ability (A) for the inputs into the stakeholder processes, no (evident) T o=
r A for the outputs of the stakeholder processes and the stakeholders=
themselves are subject to no effective T or A since they are some sort of =
(interglalactic?) shapeshifters errr=E2=80=A6 those with =E2=80=9Crole flex=
ibilities=E2=80=9D.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"=
,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Have I missed something here?<=
/span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif";color:#1F497D'>This may work for a Wizard of Oz space like 1Net w=
here even as the curtain gets repeatedly bunched up revealing the (=E2=80=
=9Cnon-existent=E2=80=9D=E2=80=94we have it on the highest possible authori=
ty=E2=80=94trust us) wizard pulling the strings and T & A appears to co=
nsist of repeated choruses of =E2=80=9Ctrust them it will get better=E2=80=
=9D by a fawning self-selected =E2=80=9CSteering Committee=E2=80=9D, but su=
rely in our world we might expect something with a slightly higher reality =
component.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'=
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-to=
p:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black=
'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","san=
s-serif";color:black'><a href=3D"mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.o=
rg">governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:governance=
-request at lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org</=
a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Malcolm<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05,=
2014 4:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org=
">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>; parminder<br><b>Cc:</b> <,<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net=
></a>,<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmu=
ndial submissions launched for endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span styl=
e=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'color:black'>On 5 Mar 2014, at 7:49 pm, parminder <<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>> wr=
ote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:=
12.0pt'><span style=3D'color:black'><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>So, request a cle=
ar response - do you mean <b><i>parity</i></b> in <b><i>decision making</i>=
</b> about <b><i>public policies </i></b>between gov and non gov actors....=
And this is not a petty point... Half of the time of the WGEC got taken on=
this kind of discussion. This is the single most important point today, if=
we can clarify nd possibly agree on this point - rest is not too difficult=
... Lets accept what is the key point, and not skirt it...<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'colo=
r:black'>Different people who contributed to the submission, even if they a=
ll endorse the final result, will probably give you different answers to th=
at question. I'm not sure that anyone is interested in what my person=
al answer is because I'm just an individual, but I would say no I do not ac=
cept as a general proposition that parity in decision making is appropriate=
, which is why I personally objected to that language being used.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'col=
or:black'>For some issues, it will be appropriate that the stakeholders act=
as equals in the decision making process (to the extent that there is a &q=
uot;decision" at all). In other areas, it won't be appropriate a=
nd may be more appropriate that although all stakeholders are involved, one=
of them will legitimately take a bigger role than the others. For ex=
ample governments may take a leading role in transnational human rights dis=
putes, the technical community may do so in developing spam filtering stand=
ards, civil society may do so in developing human rights based principles f=
or judging government surveillance practices, and even the private sector m=
ay do so, say in setting prices for the trading of IPv4 addresses.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'co=
lor:black'>This also implies that the appropriate mechanism of governance m=
ay differ in each case, eg. laws, standards, markets. The above all f=
ollows naturally if you accept that there are no fixed stakeholder roles, b=
ecause the appropriate roles will differ depending on the circumstances.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt=
'><span style=3D'color:black'><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p=
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>BTW, the German government h=
as the following to say in its submission to NetMundial<br><br>...<br><br>D=
o you for instance agree to the above formulation, or NOT...<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></=
o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>=
Nope, don't agree with the German government's formulation because it maint=
ains the fallacy of fixed stakeholder roles.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><=
div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>--</=
span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-s=
erif";color:black'>Jeremy Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B Com</span><span style=3D=
'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>I=
nternet lawyer, ICT policy advocate, geek</span><span style=3D'color:black'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>host -t NAPTR =
5.9.8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.<a href=3D"http://e164.org">e164.org</a>|awk -F! '{pr=
int $3}'</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetic=
a","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dapple-style-span>=
<span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>WARNING: T=
his email has not been encrypted. You are strongly recommended to enable en=
cryption at your end. For instructions, see <a href=3D"http://jere.my/l/pgp=
">http://jere.my/l/pgp</a>.</span></span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></body></html>=
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