No subject


Thu Jan 13 08:49:26 EST 2022 

her it doesn=92t have any operational processes or related significant stru=
ctures of accountability so it can=92t handle even the most insignificant o=
f challenges without some form of full on offensive/defensive onslaught or =
it simply ignores the issue and moves on. Nor can it handle even the most i=
nconsequential of divergences/diversities of opinion=97the drive towards co=
nvergence/consensus (and the associated processes of marginalization and ex=
clusion) are terrifying to me if there were any real chance of scaling.  In=
 the last century we had a lot of experience (and several names) for politi=
cal systems that couldn=92t deal with challenge, divergence, conflict and i=
nsisted on a managed consensus and forced choices =93or else=85

Democracy and multi-lateralism both have many many flaws but they have both=
 taken us a considerable distance down roads that allow us to be where we a=
re now and thinking about significant and desirable ways forward into much =
more complex decision environments. Moreover we now have (the possibility o=
f using) new tools to support the extending of democratic capabilities, the=
 broader inclusion of diversities, the extension of opportunities for effec=
tive participation to previously marginalized populations.

I see absolutely no reason for civil society to be uncritically supporting =
MSism as is obviously currently the case. To my mind this goes against ever=
ything that CS has traditionally stood for=97the broadening and deepening o=
f accountability in support of the public good, the strengthening of democr=
acy including through its extension to the poor and marginalized, the devel=
oping of public processes and methods to control the unaccountable use of p=
rivate power in opposition to the public interest.

MSism is in its essence a form of privatization of power=97shifting of powe=
r from the hands of people (however flawed that might be) to the hands of t=
hose who for the most part are unaccountable and non-transparent in their a=
ctions, their internal operations and in their structures.

I would love to see some demonstration that I am wrong or that I=92ve misse=
d something but another round of =93trust them/us=94 is not going to cut it.

Mike



From: Andrew Puddephatt [mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org]
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 6:14 PM
To: michael gurstein; governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists=
.igcaucus.org>; 'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'
Cc: bestbits at lists.bestbits.net<mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>
Subject: Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launc=
hed for endorsement at bestbits.net

Michael

Those of us less clever than you are trying to figure out how to make gover=
nance of a global system more equitable and transparent and accountable.  C=
learly we failed.

Can you explain to me how an international inter state process is democrati=
c, assuming that is what you believe (and if not what is your democratic al=
ternative to the submissions on BB?).  How are my interests represented by =
inter state discussions, or those of Chinese or Russian citizens, or women =
in Saudi Arabia or Canadian academics?




From: michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com<mailto:gurstein at gmail.com>>
Reply-To: michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com<mailto:gurstein at gmail.com>>
Date: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 23:57
To: "governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>" <=
governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>>, Jerem=
y Malcolm <Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au<mailto:Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au>>, "parminder at i=
tforchange.net<mailto:parminder at itforchange.net>" <parminder at itforchange.ne=
t<mailto:parminder at itforchange.net>>
Cc: "<bestbits at lists. net<mailto:bestbits at lists.%20net>>" <bestbits at lists.b=
estbits.net<mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>>
Subject: RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launc=
hed for endorsement at bestbits.net

I see, so in your world democracy (however flawed), is to be replaced by Mu=
ltistakeholderism where there is no (evident) transparency (T) or accountab=
ility (A) for the inputs into the stakeholder processes, no (evident) T or =
A for the outputs of the stakeholder processes  and the stakeholders themse=
lves are subject to no effective T or A since they are some sort of (interg=
lalactic?) shapeshifters errr=85 those with =93role flexibilities=94.

Have I missed something here?

This may work for a Wizard of Oz space like 1Net where even as the curtain =
gets repeatedly bunched up revealing the (=93non-existent=94=97we have it o=
n the highest possible authority=97trust us) wizard pulling the strings and=
 T & A appears to consist of repeated choruses of =93trust them it will get=
 better=94 by a fawning self-selected =93Steering Committee=94, but surely =
in our world we might expect something with a slightly higher reality compo=
nent.

M

From:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance-request at lists.=
igcaucus.org> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of J=
eremy Malcolm
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 4:21 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; pa=
rminder
Cc: &lt,bestbits at lists.bestbits.net&gt<mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net&g=
t>,
Subject: Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launc=
hed for endorsement at bestbits.net

On 5 Mar 2014, at 7:49 pm, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net<mailto:parm=
inder at itforchange.net>> wrote:



So, request a clear response - do you mean parity in decision making about =
public policies between gov and non gov actors.... And this is not a petty =
point... Half of the time of the WGEC got taken on this kind of discussion.=
 This is the single most important point today, if we can clarify nd possib=
ly agree on this point - rest is not too difficult... Lets accept what is t=
he key point, and not skirt it...

Different people who contributed to the submission, even if they all endors=
e the final result, will probably give you different answers to that questi=
on.  I'm not sure that anyone is interested in what my personal answer is b=
ecause I'm just an individual, but I would say no I do not accept as a gene=
ral proposition that parity in decision making is appropriate, which is why=
 I personally objected to that language being used.

For some issues, it will be appropriate that the stakeholders act as equals=
 in the decision making process (to the extent that there is a "decision" a=
t all).  In other areas, it won't be appropriate and may be more appropriat=
e that although all stakeholders are involved, one of them will legitimatel=
y take a bigger role than the others.  For example governments may take a l=
eading role in transnational human rights disputes, the technical community=
 may do so in developing spam filtering standards, civil society may do so =
in developing human rights based principles for judging government surveill=
ance practices, and even the private sector may do so, say in setting price=
s for the trading of IPv4 addresses.

This also implies that the appropriate mechanism of governance may differ i=
n each case, eg. laws, standards, markets.  The above all follows naturally=
 if you accept that there are no fixed stakeholder roles, because the appro=
priate roles will differ depending on the circumstances.



BTW, the German government has the following to say in its submission to Ne=
tMundial

...

Do you for instance agree to the above formulation, or NOT...

Nope, don't agree with the German government's formulation because it maint=
ains the fallacy of fixed stakeholder roles.

--
Jeremy Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B Com
Internet lawyer, ICT policy advocate, geek
host -t NAPTR 5.9.8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.e164.org<http://e164.org>|awk -F! '{pri=
nt $3}'

WARNING: This email has not been encrypted. You are strongly recommended to=
 enable encryption at your end. For instructions, see http://jere.my/l/pgp.


--_000_CF3D954B1574Aandrewgpdigitalorg_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;=
 -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14p=
x; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><div>I=92m sorry Mike =96 you are not=
 answering the question.  If you mean by multi-lateralism, negotiation=
s about a global environment conducted by states I want to know - not why y=
ou think multi-stakeholderism is crap - which you have discussed with all o=
f us at great and increasingly tedious length - but what js your democratic=
 alternative that allows my interests =96 or any other citizens to be repre=
sented in global negotiations?</div><div><br></div><div>Those you disagree =
with are looking for ways to ensure a broader range of voices =96 including=
 states of course as the most powerful actors- in the governance debate.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Put your option up for discussion and let=92s see ho=
w democratic that is to the resident of downtown Tehran (or even Hackney wh=
ere I live)</div><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div styl=
e=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BOR=
DER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PAD=
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IGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:=
 </span> michael gurstein <<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurstei=
n at gmail.com</a>><br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Thurs=
day, 6 March 2014 02:57<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> and=
rew Puddephatt <<a href=3D"mailto:andrew at gp-digital.org">andrew at gp-digit=
al.org</a>>, "<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">gove=
rnance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.=
igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, Jeremy Malcolm <<a =
href=3D"mailto:Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au</a>>, "<a=
 href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>&qu=
ot; <<a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.=
net</a>><br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> "<bestb=
its at lists. net>" <<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net"=
>bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a>><br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Su=
bject: </span> RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions=
 launched for endorsement at bestbits.net<br></div><div><br></div><div xmln=
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=
=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);">Andrew (and Suresh=85<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(3=
1, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">Those are quite legitimate points/questions and very much worthy of =
serious discussion and debate.
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </=
o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">However, evoking (ov=
er and over and over=85) the undefined, undescribed, undetailed multistakeh=
olderist mantra doesn=92t get us any closer=85
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </=
o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The continuous shape=
shifting by the proponents of the MS meme whenever they are challenged to g=
et real --well this isn=92t quite =93MSism=94, it isn=92t true MSism,
 it will be better next time MSism, doesn=92t do anyone a service (except t=
he =93wizards=94 behind the curtains).
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </=
o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">From my own experien=
ce, whenever MSism =93gets real=94 it falls apart=97either it doesn=92t hav=
e any operational processes or related significant structures of accountabi=
lity
 so it can=92t handle even the most insignificant of challenges without som=
e form of full on offensive/defensive onslaught or it simply ignores the is=
sue and moves on. Nor can it handle even the most inconsequential of diverg=
ences/diversities of opinion=97the drive
 towards convergence/consensus (and the associated processes of marginaliza=
tion and exclusion) are terrifying to me if there were any real chance of s=
caling.  In the last century we had a lot of experience (and several n=
ames) for political systems that couldn=92t
 deal with challenge, divergence, conflict and insisted on a managed consen=
sus and forced choices =93or else=85
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </=
o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Democracy and multi-=
lateralism both have many many flaws but they have both taken us a consider=
able distance down roads that allow us to be where we are now
 and thinking about significant and desirable ways forward into much more c=
omplex decision environments. Moreover we now have (the possibility of usin=
g) new tools to support the extending of democratic capabilities, the broad=
er inclusion of diversities, the
 extension of opportunities for effective participation to previously margi=
nalized populations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=
I see absolutely no reason for civil society to be uncritically supporting =
MSism as is obviously currently the case. To my mind this goes against ever=
ything
 that CS has traditionally stood for=97the broadening and deepening of acco=
untability in support of the public good, the strengthening of democracy in=
cluding through its extension to the poor and marginalized, the developing =
of public processes and methods to
 control the unaccountable use of private power in opposition to the public=
 interest.
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </=
o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">MSism is in its esse=
nce a form of privatization of power=97shifting of power from the hands of =
people (however flawed that might be) to the hands of those who
 for the most part are unaccountable and non-transparent in their actions, =
their internal operations and in their structures.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I would love to see some demonstration that=
 I am wrong or that I=92ve missed something but another round of =93trust t=
hem/us=94 is not going to cut it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:=
 rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31=
, 73, 125);">Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><=
o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF=
 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"=
font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> Andrew Puddephat=
t [<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org</a=
>]
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 6:14 PM<br><b>To:</b> michael gu=
rstein; <a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.i=
gcaucus.org</a>; 'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mai=
lto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subj=
ect:</b> Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launc=
hed for endorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">M=
ichael<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:=
p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Those of=
 us less clever than you are trying to figure out how to make governance of=
 a global system more equitable and transparent and accountable.  Clea=
rly we
 failed.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:=
p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Can you =
explain to me how an international inter state process is democratic, assum=
ing that is what you believe (and if not what is your democratic alternative
 to the submissions on BB?).  How are my interests represented by inte=
r state discussions, or those of Chinese or Russian citizens, or women in S=
audi Arabia or Canadian academics? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-ser=
if; color: black;">  <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"border:=
none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; color: black;">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">michael gurstein <<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com"=
>gurstein at gmail.com</a>><br><b>Reply-To: </b>michael gurstein <<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurstein at gmail.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>=
Wednesday, 5 March 2014 23:57<br><b>To: </b>"<a href=3D"mailto:governa=
nce at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>" <<a href=
=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>=
>, Jeremy Malcolm <<a href=3D"mailto:Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy at Mal=
colm.id.au</a>>,
 "<a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.n=
et</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itf=
orchange.net</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"<<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lis=
ts.%20net">bestbits at lists. net</a>>" <<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits=
@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a>><br><b>Subject: </b=
>RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for =
endorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; c=
olor: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I see, so in your world democracy (however flawed)=
, is to be replaced by Multistakeholderism where there is no (evident) tran=
sparency (T) or accountability
 (A) for the inputs into the stakeholder processes, no (evident) T or A for=
 the outputs of the stakeholder processes  and the stakeholders themse=
lves are subject to no effective T or A since they are some sort of (interg=
lalactic?) shapeshifters errr=85 those
 with =93role flexibilities=94.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fa=
mily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);">Have I missed something here?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span=
 style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 7=
3, 125);">This may work for a Wizard of Oz space like 1Net where even as th=
e curtain gets repeatedly bunched up revealing the (=93non-existent=94=97we=
 have it on the highest
 possible authority=97trust us) wizard pulling the strings and T & A ap=
pears to consist of repeated choruses of =93trust them it will get better=
=94 by a fawning self-selected =93Steering Committee=94, but surely in our =
world we might expect something with a slightly
 higher reality component.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"=
>M</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; co=
lor: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;p=
adding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black=
;"><a href=3D"mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org">governance-requ=
est at lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:governance-request at lists.igca=
ucus.org">mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Malcolm<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 201=
4 4:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">go=
vernance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>; parminder<br><b>Cc:</b> &lt,<a href=3D=
"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net&gt">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net&amp=
;gt</a>,<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundia=
l submissions launched for endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"color:black">On 5 Mar 2014, at 7:49 pm, parminder <<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>> wr=
ote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:=
black"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"color:black">So, request a clear response - do you mean
<b><i>parity</i></b> in <b><i>decision making</i></b> about <b><i>public po=
licies
</i></b>between gov and non gov actors.... And this is not a petty point...=
 Half of the time of the WGEC got taken on this kind of discussion. This is=
 the single most important point today, if we can clarify nd possibly agree=
 on this point - rest is not too
 difficult... Lets accept what is the key point, and not skirt it...<o:p></=
o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color=
:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"color:black">Different people who contributed to the submission, =
even if they all endorse the final result, will probably give you different=
 answers to that question.  I'm not sure that anyone is interested in =
what my personal
 answer is because I'm just an individual, but I would say no I do not acce=
pt as a general proposition that parity in decision making is appropriate, =
which is why I personally objected to that language being used.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"c=
olor:black">For some issues, it will be appropriate that the stakeholders a=
ct as equals in the decision making process (to the extent that there is a =
"decision" at all).  In other areas, it won't be appropriate=
 and may be
 more appropriate that although all stakeholders are involved, one of them =
will legitimately take a bigger role than the others.  For example gov=
ernments may take a leading role in transnational human rights disputes, th=
e technical community may do so in developing
 spam filtering standards, civil society may do so in developing human righ=
ts based principles for judging government surveillance practices, and even=
 the private sector may do so, say in setting prices for the trading of IPv=
4 addresses.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"color:black">This also implies that the appropriate =
mechanism of governance may differ in each case, eg. laws, standards, marke=
ts.  The above all follows naturally if you accept that there are no f=
ixed stakeholder roles, because
 the appropriate roles will differ depending on the circumstances.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><br><=
br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"col=
or:black">BTW, the German government has the following to say in its submis=
sion to NetMundial<br><br>
...<br><br>
Do you for instance agree to the above formulation, or NOT...<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"> <o:p=
></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:bl=
ack">Nope, don't agree with the German government's formulation because it =
maintains the fallacy of fixed stakeholder roles.<o:p></o:p></span></p></di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"> <o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: bl=
ack;">--</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helveti=
ca, sans-serif; color: black;">Jeremy Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B Com</span><s=
pan style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; c=
olor: black;">Internet lawyer, ICT policy advocate, geek</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: bla=
ck;">host -t NAPTR 5.9.8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.<a href=3D"http://e164.org">e164.o=
rg</a>|awk -F! '{print $3}'</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span c=
lass=3D"apple-style-span"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif=
; color: black;">WARNING: This email has not been encrypted. You are strong=
ly recommended to enable encryption at your end. For instructions, see
<a href=3D"http://jere.my/l/pgp">http://jere.my/l/pgp</a>.</span></span><sp=
an style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"> <o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></span></body></html>

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