[bestbits] [governance] IMPORTANT : Merging IGC with Best Bits

ian.peter at ianpeter.com ian.peter at ianpeter.com
Wed Jan 9 03:37:40 EST 2019 

Fortunately all the IGC documents are preserved at the Internet Archive 
(archive.org, use the wayback machine). You can access the IGC charter 
there if you are not familiar with it.


Ian

------ Original Message ------
From: "sivasubramanian muthusamy" <6.internet at gmail.com>
To: "ian.peter at ianpeter.com" <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>
Cc: "Nadira Alaraj" <nadira.araj at gmail.com>; "Carolina Rossini" 
<carolina.rossini at gmail.com>; "<bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>" 
<bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>
Sent: 9/01/2019 7:02:28 PM
Subject: Re: [bestbits] [governance] IMPORTANT : Merging IGC with Best 
Bits

>
>
>
>On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 11:48 AM ian.peter at ianpeter.com 
><ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:
>>Actually while this seemed to me the obvious way forward at first - BB 
>>emerged out of IGC, so why not get back together again - on reflection 
>>there are a few issues.
>
>+1.   The participants of IGC were almost automatically added to BB.  
>In any case BB is the more recent of the two lists, and a sizeable 
>proportion of the BB list are IGC participants. It would be easier to 
>merge into IGC list, the optics of a longer history is the added 
>advantage of merging into IGC.
>
>Sivasubramanian M
>
>>
>>Firstly I note that the IGC website is down so I cant check things - 
>>but from memory IGC had a constitution which we adopted early on which 
>>proved very difficult to change, and which may not be altogether 
>>suitable for what is needed now. I think this should be looked at 
>>before everyone is locked into something that is unsuitable. Can 
>>someone get the website up and running?
>>
>>But in any case, merging I think is necessary. At the very worst, if 
>>IGC proves to be a not completely suitable platform going forward, 
>>there is always the option to start something else to overcome the 
>>problems and get everyone to move on.
>>
>>The key I think is to work together and to seek the simplest paths 
>>forward to do this.
>>
>>Ian
>>
>>------ Original Message ------
>>From: "Nadira Alaraj" <nadira.araj at gmail.com>
>>To: "Carolina Rossini" <carolina.rossini at gmail.com>
>>Cc: "<bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>" <bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>
>>Sent: 9/01/2019 4:17:34 PM
>>Subject: Re: [bestbits] [governance] IMPORTANT : Merging IGC with Best 
>>Bits
>>
>>>Valid questions Carolina,
>>>If you didn't get a replies from members of the founding Bestbits 
>>>groups then the current membership are none affiliated individuals. 
>>>Therefore, Ian's proposal is the practical solution.
>>>Best,
>>>Nadira
>>>
>>>On Wed, Jan 9, 2019, 06:19 Carolina Rossini 
>>><carolina.rossini at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>While Ian’s idea is interesting, I wonder - Who is in the BB list 
>>>>and is not in the IGC list? Why is that the case? Are there 
>>>>barriers/conditions to entry? Are they high or low barriers?
>>>>
>>>>As Ian also noticed, both lists were born from different/specific 
>>>>communities, principles, ways of work, diversity, etc.
>>>>
>>>>Should the IGC’s principles and ways of work be laid out here, so 
>>>>they are handy for folks to review and give their opinion if this is 
>>>>the preferred way to move forward?
>>>>
>>>>It would be interesting to hear specially from those non overlapping 
>>>>folks before moving forward. I feel it would also be relevant to 
>>>>some if the ICG founders commit to be open to potential new input 
>>>>and feedback.
>>>>
>>>>Maybe there is a deal to be striken here to ensure IGC is the 
>>>>correct place.
>>>>
>>>>I don’t want to complicate things, I just want to make sure all are 
>>>>heard and have the tools to express their preference.
>>>>
>>>>Happy new year, everybody!
>>>>
>>>>C
>>>>
>>>>On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 9:29 PM Lee W McKnight <lmcknigh at syr.edu> 
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>I support Ian's idea as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>From:bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net 
>>>>><bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net> on behalf of Judith 
>>>>>Hellerstein <judith at jhellerstein.com>
>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2019 4:53:02 PM
>>>>>To:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net
>>>>>
>>>>>Subject: Re: [bestbits] [governance] IMPORTANT : Merging IGC with 
>>>>>Best Bits
>>>>>
>>>>>HI,
>>>>>
>>>>>I support Ian's idea
>>>>>
>>>>>Judith
>>>>>
>>>>>_________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO
>>>>>Hellerstein & Associates
>>>>>3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008
>>>>>Phone: (202) 362-5139  Skype ID: judithhellerstein
>>>>>Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517
>>>>>E-mail: Judith at jhellerstein.com   Website: www.jhellerstein.com
>>>>>Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/
>>>>>Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 1/8/2019 3:35 PM, ian.peter at ianpeter.com 
>>>>><mailto:ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:
>>>>>>I support the idea of merging. BB served a useful purpose for a 
>>>>>>while but that time has past.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I suggest the easiest way to do this is for BB to decide to 
>>>>>>disband, and encourage any remaining members who are not already 
>>>>>>on the IGC mailing list to join up there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ian
>>>>>>
>>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>>From: "Mwendwa Kivuva" <Kivuva at transworldafrica.com>
>>>>>>To: "Sheetal Kumar" <sheetal at gp-digital.org>
>>>>>>Cc: "&lt bestbits at lists.bestbits.net&gt 
>>>>>><mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net&gt>" 
>>>>>><bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>
>>>>>>Sent: 9/01/2019 4:52:30 AM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [bestbits] [governance] IMPORTANT : Merging IGC with 
>>>>>>Best Bits
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A good idea as this is, can we get the genesis of how CS was 
>>>>>>>split into different groupings?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Tue, Jan 8, 2019, 8:31 PM Sheetal Kumar 
>>>>>>><sheetal at gp-digital.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>Dear all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>(dropping IGC as this is just for Bestbits members) Firstly, 
>>>>>>>>happy new year! I am writing to follow up on the conversation 
>>>>>>>>with regards to a proposal to merge IGC and Bestbits, discussed 
>>>>>>>>by those who attended the call organised last December.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>As noted earlier, the merger of the two groups was suggested as 
>>>>>>>>a way of avoiding duplication of work between groups, pooling 
>>>>>>>>resources and streamlining efforts so that they're more focused 
>>>>>>>>and coordinated - particularly around key forums and events.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It would be interesting to hear feedback on this idea, positive 
>>>>>>>>or otherwise. Otherwise, I suggest another call to decide next 
>>>>>>>>steps?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Best
>>>>>>>>Sheetal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 at 02:46, ian.peter at ianpeter.com 
>>>>>>>><mailto:ian.peter at ianpeter.com> <ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>Hi Arsene,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Mergers are difficult and imagine that both sides are going to 
>>>>>>>>>have to change structurally so that they can work together. 
>>>>>>>>>Both organisations have working rules and practices, changing 
>>>>>>>>>both sets will be complex and I think unnecessary.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>My opinion is that, in this case, BB should just decide to fold 
>>>>>>>>>- and in doing so, encourage its members to join IGC if they 
>>>>>>>>>are not already involved.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>That's a lot simpler and leaves IGC intact and continuing as an 
>>>>>>>>>umbrella groups for civil society involvement in internet 
>>>>>>>>>governance.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>(Best Bits copied in). Just suggesting this because I think it 
>>>>>>>>>is a lot easier.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Ian Peter
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>>>>>From: "Arsène Tungali" <governance at lists.riseup.net>
>>>>>>>>>To: "Mueller, Milton L" <milton at gatech.edu>
>>>>>>>>>Cc: "Farzaneh Badiei" <farzaneh.badii at gmail.com>; 
>>>>>>>>>"governance at lists.riseup.net" <governance at lists.riseup.net>
>>>>>>>>>Sent: 21/12/2018 9:12:28 AM
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [governance] IMPORTANT : Merging IGC with Best 
>>>>>>>>>Bits
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Milton, i think i tried to explain why i was suggesting that. 
>>>>>>>>>>Sorry if that was not clear. The reason is simple: we agreed 
>>>>>>>>>>to take time to discuss the merger issue within the two groups 
>>>>>>>>>>separately. So, if we Cc both lists that means to me we are 
>>>>>>>>>>not doing separately anymore. That’s my understanding and i 
>>>>>>>>>>may be wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On 20 Dec 2018, at 23:32, Mueller, Milton L 
>>>>>>>>>>><milton at gatech.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Why segregate the discussions, Arsene?
>>>>>>>>>>>I don't understand that. It merely perpetuates the problem of 
>>>>>>>>>>>a fragmented and uncoordinated civil society!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>--MM
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>From: governance-request at lists.riseup.net 
>>>>>>>>>>>><mailto:governance-request at lists.riseup.net> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>[mailto:governance-
>>>>>>>>>>>>request at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of Arsène Tungali
>>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 12:32 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>To: Farzaneh Badiei <farzaneh.badii at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Cc: bestbits at lists.bestbits.net 
>>>>>>>>>>>><mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>&gt &lt 
>>>>>>>>>>>><bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>governance <governance at lists.riseup.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [governance] IMPORTANT : Merging IGC with Best 
>>>>>>>>>>>>Bits
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Farzaneh, all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>While we are still discussing and I do appreciate the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>discussion, may I please
>>>>>>>>>>>>suggest we keep discussions separate in each specific group?
>>>>>>>>>>>>As I said in my original email, the issue of a merger should 
>>>>>>>>>>>>be discussed
>>>>>>>>>>>>SEPARATELY at the IGC and Best Bits lists.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Each group needs to have an internal discussion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>So, please do not Cc both groups when communicating. Some 
>>>>>>>>>>>>members are
>>>>>>>>>>>>on both lists and have posting rights on both but others 
>>>>>>>>>>>>don't, this may lead
>>>>>>>>>>>>to having fragmented pieces of emails when everyone is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>responding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hope this makes sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>Arsene
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>2018-12-17 23:33 UTC+02:00, farzaneh badii 
>>>>>>>>>>>><farzaneh.badii at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks Arsene.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>We need to decide on merging IGC and BestBits. The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>suggestion comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>from the fact that we have not been active much during the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>past year.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Also fragmented efforts are a strain on resources. Having 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>multiple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>elections and multiple groups to coordinate (with really 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>minimal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>differences) and then not be active at all for a year is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>not really
>>>>>>>>>>>>recommendable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>De told us that apparently there is some kind of consensus 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>method if I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>am not mistaken. De, is there a documented approach?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think the most important is to discuss why BestBits was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>created and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>whether the reasons still stand and how BestBits members 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>feel about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the merge. Maybe the ones with strong objections can be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>convinced,
>>>>>>>>>>>>maybe not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lets have the conversation. If we do not see a strong 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>objection
>>>>>>>>>>>>>(multiple organizations, individuals object and give 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>reasons as to why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>BestBits should remain even if dormant), then we can decide 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>merge. If there are strong objections, then we will not go 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>with the merge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>From what I see from BestBits website, the following 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>individuals are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>at the steering committee of BestBits:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>- Nighat Dad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>- Poncelet Ileleji
>>>>>>>>>>>>>- Renata Ribeiro
>>>>>>>>>>>>>- Dave Burstein
>>>>>>>>>>>>>- Imran Ahmed Shah [second term of election]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>- Antonella Perini [co-opted by committee]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Besbits CSCG Representatives
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>- Claudio Lucena Neto (2018-2019)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>- Sheetal Kumar (2017-2018)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Does this list still stand? Do the steering committee 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>members of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>BestBits and the reps on CSCG would like to weigh in?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I know Sheetal was on the call. Would be good to hear from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>others.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Farzaneh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 9:00 AM Arsène Tungali
>>>>>>>>>>>>><governance at lists.riseup.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You have probably seen this already on a different thread 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but thought
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>it well to have this discussion solely on the IGC list (as 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I expect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Best Bits to do the same), that's why i started this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thread hoping to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hear from you on this important question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This need for merging was raised by some IGC members 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>during a civil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>society call that had mostly IGC and Best Bits 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>participants; many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>whom are both IGC and Best Bits (BB) members. The call 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>happened last
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>week and Farzaneh offered to share the link to the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>recording.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I will not go into much details about the rationale but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>would welcome
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anyone to weigh in and share their reasoning on whether or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>should merge both lists. We will need to also answer the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>question on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>how (who is doing what?) will this happen? Is the IGC 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>going to become
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BB or the latter becoming IGC? Or are we working towards a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>group where members of both groups will all be added?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This brings back to my memory the whole hassle we had to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>migrate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(SAVE?) this list and allow us to have this discussion 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>list (which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hasn't been quite active for a few months but where many 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>feel safe to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>share IG related updates). So i hope we discuss and take 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the technical cost of the merging process (should it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>happen).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I am also not sure how we will gauge consensus about this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>question on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this list? Should we vote? How long do we take to decide? 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Should we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>consult IGC 'founders' or former Co-coordinators 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>separately and ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>them what they think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>During the call, Bruna and I offered to have a decision by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mid-January and we hope this is realistic given the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>holiday season.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>We will then report to the group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I just wanted to throw this all here and would REALLY 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>appreciate a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>discussion that will help us move forward and come to a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>conclusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Arsene
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe: <mailto:igc-unsubscribe at lists.riseup.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>List help: <https://riseup.net/lists>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>>>>------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>**Arsène Tungali* <http://about.me/ArseneTungali>* 
>>>>>>>>>>>>Co-Founder &
>>>>>>>>>>>>Executive Director, *Rudi international 
>>>>>>>>>>>><http://www.rudiinternational.org>*,
>>>>>>>>>>>>CEO,* Smart Services Sarl <https://www.smart-kitoko.com/>*,
>>>>>>>>>>>>Tel: +243 993810967
>>>>>>>>>>>>GPG: 523644A0
>>>>>>>>>>>>*Goma, Democratic Republic of Congo*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>2015 Mandela Washington Felllow
>>>>>>>>>>>><http://tungali.blogspot.com/2015/06/selected-for-2015-mandela-
>>>>>>>>>>>>washington.html>
>>>>>>>>>>>>(YALI) - ISOC Ambassador (IGF Brazil
>>>>>>>>>>>><http://www.internetsociety.org/what-we-do/education-and-leadership-
>>>>>>>>>>>>programmes/next-generation-leaders/igf-ambassadors-programme/Past-
>>>>>>>>>>>>Ambassadors>
>>>>>>>>>>>>& Mexico
>>>>>>>>>>>><http://www.internetsociety.org/what-we-do/education-and-leadership-
>>>>>>>>>>>>programmes/next-generation-leaders/Current-Ambassadors>)
>>>>>>>>>>>>- AFRISIG 2016 
>>>>>>>>>>>><http://afrisig.org/afrisig-2016/class-of-2016/> - Blogger
>>>>>>>>>>>><http://tungali.blogspot.com> - ICANN's GNSO Council
>>>>>>>>>>>><https://gnso.icann.org/en/about/gnso-council.htm> Member. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>AFRINIC
>>>>>>>>>>>>Fellow ( Mauritius
>>>>>>>>>>>><http://www.afrinic.net/en/library/news/1907-afrinic-25-fellowship-
>>>>>>>>>>>>winners>)*
>>>>>>>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>>>>>      bestbits at lists.bestbits.net.
>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
>>>>>>>>>      http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Sheetal Kumar
>>>>>>>>Programme Lead | GLOBAL PARTNERS DIGITAL
>>>>>>>>Second Home, 68-80 Hanbury Street, London, E1 5JL
>>>>>>>>T: +44 (0)20 3 818 3258| M: +44 (0)7739569514  |
>>>>>>>>PGP ID: E592EFBBEAB1CF31  | PGP Fingerprint: F5D5 114D 173B E9E2 
>>>>>>>>0603 DD7F E592 EFBB EAB1 CF31|
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>>>>      bestbits at lists.bestbits.net.
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
>>>>>>>>      http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits
>>>>>>
>>>>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>>      bestbits at lists.bestbits.net.
>>>>>>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
>>>>>>      http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits
>>>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>      bestbits at lists.bestbits.net.
>>>>>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
>>>>>      http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits
>>>>--
>>>>
>>>>Carolina Rossini
>>>>+ 1 (617) 697 9389 | skype: carolrossini | @carolinarossini
>>>>PGP ID:  0xEC81015C
>>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>>____________________________________________________________
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