[bestbits] OFF-TOPIC - Brazil: Return to Terror

Mon Oct 29 00:55:20 EDT 2018

On 29/10/18 8:07 AM, ian.peter at ianpeter.com wrote:
> Hi Parminder,
>
> not the time for a detailed discussion on this,

Why so Ian, it never seems to be a good time :)

> but I do regard Cgi.br as the best example we have seen of a national
> body addressing internet issues, and a good model.

Yes, it is .... I developed a proposal on it for India to follow it, and
submitted to CS groups here maybe 6 years back, but it somehow did not
fly among them ... I have organised IGF workshops advocating the
Brazilian CGI model with Carlos and others...

But you really need to study the CGI model, the dispersion and power of
groups within it, and its checks and balances, how for instance, groups
reps are elected, only reps of private sector collectives and not
private companies per se are allowed, how public interest interests
actors are always maintained in much greater number than private
interest actors, and so on, plus how it limits itself to matters of
narrow technical governance, and finally how it acts within a larger
democratic national constitutional framework , to understand what is
best in the CGI model.

To use CGI's name and model to seek establishing a WEF based global IG
order instead of UN based one (working with a more democratic ICANN
doing tech governance) is what is fallacious... Mind it, WEF and the
proponents of MS model there were clear that they meant to extend MSism
not just beyond tech governance in IG, but also to all areas beyond
IG... These facts were often and strongly presented here.

> That's the sort of co-operation which internet governance needs within
> each jurisdiction, not models based on market ideologies or trust in a
> pure nation states system. We may never agree on the optimal path
> forward, but I do not see answers in this space until all stakeholders
> co-operate.

Weak and empty world like 'cooperation' when the world is facing basic
political- institutional disasters are not only useless, they are highly
counter-productive... And if you continue to be serious in your
assertion that ideas of citizens, public interest and democracy are
better replaced by stakeholders, stakes and MSism, that IMHO represents
a continuation on a suicidal noelib path.

Sorry if this comes as harsh, but i am just doing a political argument
here.

regards, parminder

>
> Ian
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "parminder" <parminder at itforchange.net
> <mailto:parminder at itforchange.net>>
> To: bestbits at lists.bestbits.net <mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>
> Sent: 29/10/2018 1:13:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [bestbits] OFF-TOPIC - Brazil: Return to Terror
>
>>
>> On 29/10/18 3:47 AM, ian.peter at ianpeter.com wrote:
>>> Very sad that this has happened, Carlos. Lurches to the right seem
>>> commonplace these days. 
>>>
>>> Brazil was a great leader as regards multistakeholder internet
>>> governance initiatives, and I do hope that all is not lost with this
>>> change. Certainly what has been achieved in the past sets a great
>>> example and part of history which I hope is not forgotten.
>>>
>>> Ian
>>
>>
>> I dont want to make capital out of unfortunate times, but truth is as
>> important to speak out at such times, if we are not just to make pro
>> forma regrets but to look ahead with vision and purpose, and thus any
>> real hope....
>>
>> Dear Ian, do you really think that a multistakeholder model which
>> culminated in trying to install a World Economic Forum based global
>> Internet Governance regime instead of a UN based one was itself not a
>> lurch to right? That is also history that must not be forgotten, and
>> released from its responsibilities.
>>
>> The current Trumpian phenomenon is precisely the product of a
>> trans-national elite seeking their common economic advantages often
>> using the cover of social liberalism without economic egalitarianism
>> -- where market without political governance was to be the defender
>> of rights! This is a direct result of promotion of an one-sided talk
>> of human rights -- only civil and political ones and not social and
>> economic ones, which have openly been flouted even ridiculed on ,
>> yes, IG civil society lists.... Dot ask me for real examples, bec I
>> have followed this and I know many.... Ok, take two, the very concept
>> and not just the real implementation of 'public interest' has been
>> ridiculed on the NCUC (of ICANN's)website, to which many CS stalwarts
>> of IG belong. A key leader of CS community has said 'social justice'
>> is a meaningless concept, another that the term 'democracy carries
>> baggage', and when appeals (like at UNESCO's key Paris meeting on IG)
>> were circulated to simply ensure that social and economic rights get
>> mentioned along with civil and public rights in the conf document
>> there wasnt much sympathy on these lists.. And yes, also when all
>> progressive civil society is fighting for a binding treaty on human
>> rights abuses by corporations, key leaders write here why any such
>> thing is a bad idea .... .I can go on  and on ...
>>
>> And so lets not assume innocence about this creeping death of
>> progressive and democratic ideals that the global trans-national
>> elite has brought on us in blind pursuit of their global economic
>> interests (Zizek's 'Clinton not Trump is the problem' precisely
>> captures it).
>>
>> This is the dispossessed reacting against the global neoliberal
>> excesses in the only ways they could think of, or were made available
>> to them, however deleterious the results are finally going to be for
>> them. But lets not look away from what or who is responsible here.....
>>
>> When we seethe  market, the embodiment of un-restrained
>> self-interest, as the institution that will govern us in all areas
>> (which is the definition of neoliberalism) including of rights,
>> welfare, etc, then one can very well expect a Trump and a Bolsanaro
>> to come along and say, well self-interest, fine, this is what it
>> politically is, everyone fending for oneself and one's narrow
>> interests, and avowedly and unabashedly so ...  Trump and Bolsorno
>> are the other side of the same trans-national neo-liberalism of which
>> Internet governance space has been a key, often pioneering arena. It
>> is a local, political response of the justifiably angry and
>> dispossessed, even if a suicidal one... T and B are simply
>> neoliberalism's narrow profession of unbridled self-interest without
>> the spin and false sophisticated sheen that is just there to reflect
>> away deserved criticism -- it is the proverbial chickens coming home
>> to roost.
>>
>> With hope and solidarity
>>
>> parminder
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> From: "Carlos Afonso" <ca at cafonso.ca <mailto:ca at cafonso.ca>>
>>> To: "BestBits List" <bestbits at lists.bestbits.net
>>> <mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>>
>>> Sent: 28/10/2018 1:29:02 AM
>>> Subject: [bestbits] OFF-TOPIC - Brazil: Return to Terror
>>>
>>>> Dear colleagues, this article may give you an idea of what might happen
>>>> in Brazil with the presidential elections tomorrow.
>>>>  
>>>> Sorry for this, but the situation may be terrifying for anyone who
>>>> opposes the ultra-right-wing candidate. The article by Pablo
>>>> Villaça (in
>>>> English) is an accurate review:
>>>>  
>>>> https://www.rogerebert.com/far-flung-correspondents/brazilian-election-2018-bolsonaro
>>>>  
>>>> The article is also attached in PDF.
>>>>  
>>>> Bolsonaro threatens to liquidate all NGOs and social movements -- who
>>>> can choose between prison and exile. Fundamental achievements like our
>>>> multistakeholder Internet governance system, our Internet Bill of
>>>> Rights, and many other human rights-related laws are at risk.
>>>>  
>>>> fraternal regards
>>>>  
>>>> --c.a.
>>>>  
>>>> --
>>>>  
>>>> Carlos A. Afonso
>>>> [emails são pessoais exceto quando explicitamente indicado em
>>>> contrário]
>>>> [emails are personal unless explicitly indicated otherwise]
>>>>  
>>>> Instituto Nupef - https://nupef.org.br
>>>> ISOC-BR - https://isoc.org.br
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>
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