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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 29/10/18 8:07 AM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a> wrote:<br>
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<div>Hi Parminder,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>not the time for a detailed discussion on this, </div>
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<p><br>
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<p>Why so Ian, it never seems to be a good time :)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:em56e9aae8-e1d2-45a8-9552-b07846cac9d0@laptop-93l8qkek">
<div>but I do regard Cgi.br as the best example we have seen of a
national body addressing internet issues, and a good model.</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Yes, it is .... I developed a proposal on it for India to follow
it, and submitted to CS groups here maybe 6 years back, but it
somehow did not fly among them ... I have organised IGF workshops
advocating the Brazilian CGI model with Carlos and others...</p>
<p>But you really need to study the CGI model, the dispersion and
power of groups within it, and its checks and balances, how for
instance, groups reps are elected, only reps of private sector
collectives and not private companies per se are allowed, how
public interest interests actors are always maintained in much
greater number than private interest actors, and so on, plus how
it limits itself to matters of narrow technical governance, and
finally how it acts within a larger democratic national
constitutional framework , to understand what is best in the CGI
model. <br>
</p>
<p>To use CGI's name and model to seek establishing a WEF based
global IG order instead of UN based one (working with a more
democratic ICANN doing tech governance) is what is fallacious...
Mind it, WEF and the proponents of MS model there were clear that
they meant to extend MSism not just beyond tech governance in IG,
but also to all areas beyond IG... These facts were often and
strongly presented here. <br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:em56e9aae8-e1d2-45a8-9552-b07846cac9d0@laptop-93l8qkek">
<div> That's the sort of co-operation which internet governance
needs within each jurisdiction, not models based on market
ideologies or trust in a pure nation states system. We may never
agree on the optimal path forward, but I do not see answers in
this space until all stakeholders co-operate.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Weak and empty world like 'cooperation' when the world is facing
basic political- institutional disasters are not only useless,
they are highly counter-productive... And if you continue to be
serious in your assertion that ideas of citizens, public interest
and democracy are better replaced by stakeholders, stakes and
MSism, that IMHO represents a continuation on a suicidal noelib
path. <br>
</p>
<p>Sorry if this comes as harsh, but i am just doing a political
argument here. <br>
</p>
<p>regards, parminder <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:em56e9aae8-e1d2-45a8-9552-b07846cac9d0@laptop-93l8qkek">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ian</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>------ Original Message ------</div>
<div>From: "parminder" <<a
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" moz-do-not-send="true">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></div>
<div>To: <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a></div>
<div>Sent: 29/10/2018 1:13:29 PM</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [bestbits] OFF-TOPIC - Brazil: Return to Terror</div>
<div><br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 29/10/18 3:47 AM, <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a> wrote:<br>
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<div>Very sad that this has happened, Carlos. Lurches to the
right seem commonplace these days. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brazil was a great leader as regards multistakeholder
internet governance initiatives, and I do hope that all is
not lost with this change. Certainly what has been
achieved in the past sets a great example and part of
history which I hope is not forgotten.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ian</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I dont want to make capital out of unfortunate times, but
truth is as important to speak out at such times, if we are
not just to make pro forma regrets but to look ahead with
vision and purpose, and thus any real hope....</p>
<p>Dear Ian, do you really think that a multistakeholder model
which culminated in trying to install a World Economic Forum
based global Internet Governance regime instead of a UN
based one was itself not a lurch to right? That is also
history that must not be forgotten, and released from its
responsibilities.<br>
</p>
<p>The current Trumpian phenomenon is precisely the product of
a trans-national elite seeking their common economic
advantages often using the cover of social liberalism
without economic egalitarianism -- where market without
political governance was to be the defender of rights! This
is a direct result of promotion of an one-sided talk of
human rights -- only civil and political ones and not social
and economic ones, which have openly been flouted even
ridiculed on , yes, IG civil society lists.... Dot ask me
for real examples, bec I have followed this and I know
many.... Ok, take two, the very concept and not just the
real implementation of 'public interest' has been ridiculed
on the NCUC (of ICANN's)website, to which many CS stalwarts
of IG belong. A key leader of CS community has said 'social
justice' is a meaningless concept, another that the term
'democracy carries baggage', and when appeals (like at
UNESCO's key Paris meeting on IG) were circulated to simply
ensure that social and economic rights get mentioned along
with civil and public rights in the conf document there
wasnt much sympathy on these lists.. And yes, also when all
progressive civil society is fighting for a binding treaty
on human rights abuses by corporations, key leaders write
here why any such thing is a bad idea .... .I can go on and
on ...</p>
<p>And so lets not assume innocence about this creeping death
of progressive and democratic ideals that the global
trans-national elite has brought on us in blind pursuit of
their global economic interests (Zizek's 'Clinton not Trump
is the problem' precisely captures it). <br>
</p>
<p>This is the dispossessed reacting against the global
neoliberal excesses in the only ways they could think of, or
were made available to them, however deleterious the results
are finally going to be for them. But lets not look away
from what or who is responsible here.....</p>
<p>When we seethe market, the embodiment of un-restrained
self-interest, as the institution that will govern us in all
areas (which is the definition of neoliberalism) including
of rights, welfare, etc, then one can very well expect a
Trump and a Bolsanaro to come along and say, well
self-interest, fine, this is what it politically is,
everyone fending for oneself and one's narrow interests, and
avowedly and unabashedly so ... Trump and Bolsorno are the
other side of the same trans-national neo-liberalism of
which Internet governance space has been a key, often
pioneering arena. It is a local, political response of the
justifiably angry and dispossessed, even if a suicidal
one... T and B are simply neoliberalism's narrow profession
of unbridled self-interest without the spin and false
sophisticated sheen that is just there to reflect away
deserved criticism -- it is the proverbial chickens coming
home to roost. <br>
</p>
<p>With hope and solidarity</p>
<p>parminder <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:em67fb6dbc-b13d-482e-be5d-0a1ce7139167@laptop-93l8qkek"
class="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
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<div><br>
</div>
<div>------ Original Message ------</div>
<div>From: "Carlos Afonso" <<a
href="mailto:ca@cafonso.ca" moz-do-not-send="true">ca@cafonso.ca</a>></div>
<div>To: "BestBits List" <<a
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>></div>
<div>Sent: 28/10/2018 1:29:02 AM</div>
<div>Subject: [bestbits] OFF-TOPIC - Brazil: Return to
Terror</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id="xb71ef0e52fa84e5" class="plain">
<blockquote
cite="ad7a769e-f5d3-5b46-70a2-1610ea5c40a1@cafonso.ca"
type="cite" class="cite2"> <tt
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Dear colleagues, this article may give you an
idea of what might happen</div>
<div>in Brazil with the presidential elections
tomorrow.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sorry for this, but the situation may be
terrifying for anyone who</div>
<div>opposes the ultra-right-wing candidate. The
article by Pablo Villaça (in</div>
<div>English) is an accurate review:</div>
<div> </div>
<div><a
href="https://www.rogerebert.com/far-flung-correspondents/brazilian-election-2018-bolsonaro"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.rogerebert.com/far-flung-correspondents/brazilian-election-2018-bolsonaro</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>The article is also attached in PDF.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bolsonaro threatens to liquidate all NGOs and
social movements -- who</div>
<div>can choose between prison and exile. Fundamental
achievements like our</div>
<div>multistakeholder Internet governance system, our
Internet Bill of</div>
<div>Rights, and many other human rights-related laws
are at risk.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>fraternal regards</div>
<div> </div>
<div>--c.a.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>--</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Carlos A. Afonso</div>
<div>[emails são pessoais exceto quando explicitamente
indicado em contrário]</div>
<div>[emails are personal unless explicitly indicated
otherwise]</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Instituto Nupef - <a href="https://nupef.org.br"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://nupef.org.br</a></div>
<div>ISOC-BR - <a href="https://isoc.org.br"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://isoc.org.br</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</tt></blockquote>
</div>
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