[bestbits] Reform surveillance

[Kevin Bankston]

Hi Michael.  Sorry.  To clarify my language:

> Since 2005 when news about the NSA programs first broke, through to today,
> I've yet to see anything reported anywhere about any of the data being
> sought
by the NSA
> being data that would not have been collected
by the Internet companies
> but for
the Internet companies'
> targeted
> advertising needs.  Have I missed something?

To clarify my point: Although I agree with Mike's prioritization, I also agree with the general impulse to leverage the NSA scandal to advance a broader consumer privacy agenda.  And I definitely share the general concern that creating large honeypots of behavioral tracking data creates a tempting target for the government.  But I've seen a lot of vague overstatements in the press lately on this point, basically saying "this is all the fault of the Internet companies' advertising-driven data-hoarding practices", so I just felt the need to point out that as best I can tell, the types of data and communications content that we know the NSA is seeking would exist and be stored and be available even if there was no such thing as targeted advertising or behavioral tracking.

On Dec 10, 2013, at 4:01 PM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Kevin,
> 
> I'm not sure that I understand what it is you are saying here. Could you
> elaborate a bit. (for example "data being sought" ... sought by who?
> "collected" ... collected by who? And so on...
> 
> Tks,
> 
> M
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net
> [mailto:bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net] On Behalf Of Kevin Bankston
> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 2:58 AM
> To: genekimmelman at gmail.com
> Cc: mishi at softwarefreedom.org; mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG;
> bestbits at lists.bestbits.net
> Subject: Re: [bestbits] Reform surveillance
> 
> Since 2005 when news about the NSA programs first broke, through to today,
> I've yet to see anything reported anywhere about any of the data being
> sought
by the NSA
> being data that would not have been collected
by the Internet companies
> but for
the Internet companies'
> targeted
> advertising needs.  Have I missed something?
> 
> On Dec 10, 2013, at 11:02 AM, "genekimmelman at gmail.com"
> <genekimmelman at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> If the supply side insists on personal information for targeted
> advertising,  isn't that entangled with the data governments seek? 
>> 
>> 
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Mishi Choudhary <mishi at softwarefreedom.org>
>> Date: 12/10/2013 10:52 AM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: "Mike Godwin (mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG)" 
>> <mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG>,bestbits at lists.bestbits.net
>> Subject: Re: [bestbits] Reform surveillance
>> 
>> 
>> I agree with Mike that its crucial to reduce the "demand-side" by 
>> regulating government access but I think the suppliers of data are not 
>> as informed as they should and could be and the companies have more to 
>> do at their end.
>> 
>> 
>> On 12/09/2013 07:10 PM, Mike Godwin (mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG) wrote:
>>> Mishi quotes the Times:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> "While the Internet companies fight to maintain authority over 
>>>> their customers¹ data, their business models depend on collecting 
>>>> the same information that the spy agencies want, and they have long 
>>>> cooperated with the government to some extent by handing over data 
>>>> in response to legal requests.
>>> This statement strikes me as disingenuously oversimplistic on the 
>>> Times¹s part ‹ specifically, in saying that the Internet companies 
>>> are collecting ³the same information that the spy agencies want.²  
>>> Yes, the agencies want the data the companies have, but the 
>>> companies are gathering data about consumption and viewing patterns, 
>>> primarily. What the agencies want is traffic and association 
>>> analysis, and they know they can draw inferences if they have large
> datasets.
>>> 
>>> This may seem like a subtle distinction, but really it¹s not. It¹s 
>>> like saying ³I listen to changes in the tone of your voice when you 
>>> speak to me, and so does the snooping spy who wiretaps your phone, 
>>> and therefore, implicitly, the spy and I are both culpable somehow.²
>>> 
>>> What I perceive in all this is an attempt to muddy the issue and 
>>> delegitimize the internet companies¹ sincere efforts to build and/or 
>>> restore consumer trust. I¹m critical of the companies from time to 
>>> time (and there are times when I¹m mostly critical of what all the 
>>> companies are doing), but to me the real analysis here is that 
>>> governments have opportunistically taken advantage of what the 
>>> companies have been gathering, most of the time in good faith, from
> users.
>>> 
>>>> The new principles outlined by the companies contain little 
>>>> information and few promises about their own practices, which 
>>>> privacy advocates say contribute to the government¹s desire to tap 
>>>> into the companies¹ data systems.
>>>> 
>>>> ³The companies are placing their users at risk by collecting and 
>>>> retaining so much information,² said Marc Rotenberg, president and 
>>>> executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a 
>>>> nonprofit research and advocacy organization. ³As long as this much 
>>>> personal data is collected and kept by these companies, they are 
>>>> always going to be the target of government collection efforts.²
>>> I take Marc at his word, as always, but the fact is that if the 
>>> companies cut their data gathering in half ‹ or even by a factor of 
>>> 10 or 100 ‹ governments will want to engage in bulk collection and 
>>> interception. The key approach, in my view, is to try to reduce the 
>>> demand-side (by regulating what governments can do) rather conflate 
>>> it with the supply side (the fact that commercial enterprises gather 
>>> data from actual and potential customers (or for them).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ‹Mike, speaking only for myself
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Warm Regards
>> Mishi Choudhary, Esq.
>> Legal Director
>> Software Freedom Law Center
>> 1995 Broadway Floor 17
>> New York, NY-10023
>> (tel) 212-461-1912
>> (fax) 212-580-0898
>> www.softwarefreedom.org
>> 
>> 
>> Executive Director
>> SFLC.IN
>> K-9, Second Floor
>> Jangpura Extn.
>> New Delhi-110014
>> (tel) +91-11-43587126
>> (fax) +91-11-24323530
>> www.sflc.in
>> 
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