[governance] Taiwanese nationals and the IGF

Wed Sep 11 09:53:36 EDT 2019

Hi all,

Mozilla's Cathleen Berger asked me to share this with you since she's
not on this list:

Hi everyone,

And thanks Michael for flagging this.
While this doesn't solve the underlying issue, I do want to offer up our
Mozilla Berlin event space as a spill-over location -- so anyone who is
in town for IGF, but either can't get to the venue or wasn't able to
register would be welcome to watch the sessions from our space, we'll
also looking into setting it up for remote participation with the IGF.
I'm happy to share an event invite a couple of weeks ahead of IGF, so
for those of you interested -- more coming in early November.

Warmly,
Cathleen

All the best
Matthias

On 10.09.19 20:26, Tapani Tarvainen wrote:
> Hi Farzaneh,
> 
> I'm not disagreeing with you insofar as current situation is in practice.
> 
> But I'm trying to look at it at another angle. Human-made rules are
> not carved in stone, not even UN ones, and there's no explicit,
> all-encompassing rule in the UN saying a passport is needed at all UN
> events, even if it is currently common practice. Or if there is (I'd
> love a pointer) exceptions have been made before.
> 
> And, Lessig to the contrary notwithstanding, web forms are not law and
> they can be worked around if there's a good case for it and enough
> political will. For UN rules if any are political, not technical.
> 
> Now I don't expect that'll happen in this case, certainly not this
> year. But making an effort, even if a small one, might nudge things a
> little in the right direction. And when everything is said and done, I
> tend to think it'd be just a smidgen easier to make UN relax its rules
> than your (admittedly preferable) solution of abolishing nation
> states. :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Tapani
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 09, 2019 at 09:17:17AM -0400, farzaneh badii (governance at lists.riseup.net) wrote:
>>
>> Tapani
>>
>> Any person who holds a passport from a non-UN member state and do not have
>> another passport (Chinese or American or European) cannot register and
>> participate at the UN. Been a known problem. Yes you need to specify the
>> country which has issued your passport. Taiwan is not among the countries
>> listed to choose from because of the UN policy. If you can't register you
>> can't go. And it's not only about Taiwan. And UN rules unfortunately
>> overcome IGF rules. It's a UN conference, UN protocol.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 8:49 AM Tapani Tarvainen <tapani.tarvainen at effi.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Actually you do not need to identify your nationality, you only
>>> need to specify the origin of your passport.
>>>
>>> And that could be challenged on the grounds that guidelines do not
>>> insist on people having a passport. After all technical limitations on
>>> the website can't override actual policy. I think they just might give
>>> in on that if someone wanted to attend with a credible reason for not
>>> having a passport but had another type of picture ID.
>>>
>>> They guidelines also state that the IGF welcomes "the participation of
>>> all stakeholders..." and "participant status shall be provided to any
>>> individual who fulfills the requirements" without any qualification as
>>> to nationality that I can see.
>>>
>>> And Taiwanese can enter Germany with their own passport, without
>>> even needing a visa.
>>>
>>> So if a Taiwanese had a picture ID issued by a state recognised by UN
>>> they should be able to attend. I presume "recognized" there includes
>>> observer countries like Palestine and Vatican (which, incidentally,
>>> maintains diplomatic relations with Taiwan).
>>>
>>> Hmm.
>>>
>>> Tapani
>>>
>>> On Sep 09 08:11, farzaneh badii (farzaneh.badii at gmail.com) wrote:
>>>
>>>> You have to identify your nationality on the form to register. Last time
>>> I
>>>> checked Taiwan wasn't listed. Also not all passports arecprvileged enough
>>>> to just pop into another country with without a visa. So I wonder if
>>> they'd
>>>> even get a visa letter.. Maybe if they are physically in the host city
>>> ...
>>>> But if not ...
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 7:58 AM Tapani Tarvainen <
>>> tapani.tarvainen at effi.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the issue here is travel: Taiwanese passport is good
>>>>> enough to travel almost everywhere, it's just not accepted for IGF
>>>>> registration.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually I find it curious that a passport is required at all for IGF.
>>>>> After all quite a few people could travel to Berlin without one: not
>>>>> only all Germans but everybody in the Schengen zone as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although the guidelines only talk about "picture ID", even if the
>>>>> account creation form wants passport... has anybody tried to use
>>>>> another type of ID?
>>>>>
>>>>> (Yeah, getting rid of nation states would solve this problem. I fear
>>>>> we won't get it done in time for this year's IGF though.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Tapani
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 07 14:35, farzaneh badii (governance at lists.riseup.net) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> E-citizenship doesnt give you a passport to travel. The only
>>> solution is
>>>>> to
>>>>>> get rid of the concept of nation states and treat people as people
>>> and
>>>>> not
>>>>>> clans.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 2:23 PM Bill Woodcock <woody at pch.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Estonian E-citizenships, perhaps?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn’t solve the problem, but it’s a work-around.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                 -Bill
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 6, 2019, at 01:52, Michael J. Oghia (via governance Mailing
>>>>> List) <
>>>>>>> governance at lists.riseup.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Ian,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks so much for this thoughtful response, and indeed, I sent it
>>> in
>>>>>>> frustration. I realise, however, that this issue goes way beyond
>>> the
>>>>> IGF.
>>>>>>> Moreover, since a member of the Chinese government is a member of
>>> the
>>>>> MAG,
>>>>>>> I seriously doubt the MAG would even be open to discussing it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The point you raise about stateless individuals is an interesting
>>> one,
>>>>>>> though, as I don't know what the protocol is for that. Taiwan
>>> nationals
>>>>>>> clearly aren't stateless, though, so those are two separate points
>>>>>>> (regardless, I still recommend the IGF develop a procedure for
>>>>> including
>>>>>>> stateless individuals/groups).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It seems this is an injustice that will have to pursue, and she can
>>>>> attend
>>>>>>> remotely if interested.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> -Michael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:46 AM ian.peter at ianpeter.com <
>>>>>>> ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wish there was an easy answer to this Michael.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But as I understand it, we are dealing with a whole-of-UN
>>> problem, not
>>>>>>>> just an IGF one. For whatever historic reasons, and they are to do
>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> recognition of the Peoples Republic of China, Taiwan is not
>>>>> recognised by
>>>>>>>> the UN as a nation state - although they would like to be and
>>> have a
>>>>> few
>>>>>>>> allies pushing their cause.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe it goes back to 1971. China's attitude has been "The
>>> *United
>>>>>>>> Nations* is an international organization composed of sovereign
>>>>> states.
>>>>>>>> *Taiwan* as a province of China is completely *not* qualified and
>>> *has
>>>>>>>> no* right to participate in it. Due to the well-known reasons, the
>>>>>>>> *Taiwan* authorities illegally usurped China's *UN* seat for as
>>> long
>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> 22 years" (http://ae.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/twwt/t150866.htm)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But having said that - others might be able to provide more
>>>>> background -
>>>>>>>> since IGF is not a meeting of nation states, but also includes
>>> civil
>>>>>>>> society and other stakeholders, one would think there might  be a
>>> way
>>>>>>>> around it. Yes, to register one needs a passport - maybe an ally
>>> of
>>>>> Taiwan
>>>>>>>> would be prepared to issue passports or acceptab;e documents for
>>>>> Taiwanese
>>>>>>>> citizens?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know how we could get around this, just brainstorming. In
>>> an
>>>>>>>> ideal IGF, stateless people would have a voice and be able to
>>> attend,
>>>>>>>> subject of course to standard security clearances. Maybe MAG could
>>>>> explore
>>>>>>>> this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ian Peter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>>>>> From: "Michael J. Oghia" <governance at lists.riseup.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "IGC" <governance at lists.riseup.net>
>>>>>>>> Sent: 6/09/2019 5:49:07 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [governance] Taiwanese nationals and the IGF
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd like to raise a serious concern I have regarding the IGF. A
>>>>> contact
>>>>>>>> of mine in Taiwan is having trouble registering for the IGF. She
>>>>> solely has
>>>>>>>> a Taiwanese passport, but the IGF, as a UN event, can only
>>> register
>>>>>>>> individuals who have a passport from a UN member state (of which
>>>>> Taiwan is
>>>>>>>> not a member). I checked with the IGF Secretariat, and
>>> unfortunately,
>>>>>>>> there's not much they can do about it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know that the politics surrounding China and Taiwan are
>>> contentious,
>>>>>>>> however, this essentially means that she (and anyone else) from
>>>>> Taiwan –
>>>>>>>> more than 23.5 million people – are essentially barred from
>>> attending
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> IGF if they don't have another passport.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I find this *deeply problematic* and in violation of the
>>> fundamental
>>>>>>>> principles of the multi-stakeholder model, namely the fact that
>>> it's
>>>>> meant
>>>>>>>> to be inclusive and open to all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Has anyone encountered this problem in the past, either in the IG
>>>>> sector
>>>>>>>> or another development sector? Does anyone have ideas for how it
>>> can
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> resolved? I'm well aware this is not the first instance of a
>>> Taiwanese
>>>>>>>> national being excluded from participation in a global event, so
>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>> this is a moot point and no one can help. Still, it still strikes
>>> me
>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> incredibly unjust and unfair that regional politics would prevent
>>>>>>>> individuals from attending the IGF.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> -Michael
>>>>>>>> __________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michael J. Oghia | Advocacy & Engagement Manager
>>>>>>>> Global Forum for Media Development (GFMD <https://gfmd.info>)
>>>>>>>> Belgrade, Serbia | Twitter <https://www.twitter.com/MikeOghia> |
>>>>> LinkedIn
>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeoghia>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Farzaneh
>>>>> ---
>>>>> To unsubscribe: <mailto:igc-unsubscribe at lists.riseup.net>
>>>>> List help: <https://riseup.net/lists>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Farzaneh
>>> ---
>>> To unsubscribe: <mailto:igc-unsubscribe at lists.riseup.net>
>>> List help: <https://riseup.net/lists>
>>>
>> -- 
>> Farzaneh
> 
>> ---
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> 
> 
> 
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-- 

Matthias Spielkamp

--

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