[governance] Taiwanese nationals and the IGF

Tue Sep 10 14:26:44 EDT 2019

Hi Farzaneh,

I'm not disagreeing with you insofar as current situation is in practice.

But I'm trying to look at it at another angle. Human-made rules are
not carved in stone, not even UN ones, and there's no explicit,
all-encompassing rule in the UN saying a passport is needed at all UN
events, even if it is currently common practice. Or if there is (I'd
love a pointer) exceptions have been made before.

And, Lessig to the contrary notwithstanding, web forms are not law and
they can be worked around if there's a good case for it and enough
political will. For UN rules if any are political, not technical.

Now I don't expect that'll happen in this case, certainly not this
year. But making an effort, even if a small one, might nudge things a
little in the right direction. And when everything is said and done, I
tend to think it'd be just a smidgen easier to make UN relax its rules
than your (admittedly preferable) solution of abolishing nation
states. :-)

Cheers,

Tapani

On Mon, Sep 09, 2019 at 09:17:17AM -0400, farzaneh badii (governance at lists.riseup.net) wrote:
> 
> Tapani
> 
> Any person who holds a passport from a non-UN member state and do not have
> another passport (Chinese or American or European) cannot register and
> participate at the UN. Been a known problem. Yes you need to specify the
> country which has issued your passport. Taiwan is not among the countries
> listed to choose from because of the UN policy. If you can't register you
> can't go. And it's not only about Taiwan. And UN rules unfortunately
> overcome IGF rules. It's a UN conference, UN protocol.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 8:49 AM Tapani Tarvainen <tapani.tarvainen at effi.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > Actually you do not need to identify your nationality, you only
> > need to specify the origin of your passport.
> >
> > And that could be challenged on the grounds that guidelines do not
> > insist on people having a passport. After all technical limitations on
> > the website can't override actual policy. I think they just might give
> > in on that if someone wanted to attend with a credible reason for not
> > having a passport but had another type of picture ID.
> >
> > They guidelines also state that the IGF welcomes "the participation of
> > all stakeholders..." and "participant status shall be provided to any
> > individual who fulfills the requirements" without any qualification as
> > to nationality that I can see.
> >
> > And Taiwanese can enter Germany with their own passport, without
> > even needing a visa.
> >
> > So if a Taiwanese had a picture ID issued by a state recognised by UN
> > they should be able to attend. I presume "recognized" there includes
> > observer countries like Palestine and Vatican (which, incidentally,
> > maintains diplomatic relations with Taiwan).
> >
> > Hmm.
> >
> > Tapani
> >
> > On Sep 09 08:11, farzaneh badii (farzaneh.badii at gmail.com) wrote:
> >
> > > You have to identify your nationality on the form to register. Last time
> > I
> > > checked Taiwan wasn't listed. Also not all passports arecprvileged enough
> > > to just pop into another country with without a visa. So I wonder if
> > they'd
> > > even get a visa letter.. Maybe if they are physically in the host city
> > ...
> > > But if not ...
> > >
> > > On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 7:58 AM Tapani Tarvainen <
> > tapani.tarvainen at effi.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't think the issue here is travel: Taiwanese passport is good
> > > > enough to travel almost everywhere, it's just not accepted for IGF
> > > > registration.
> > > >
> > > > Actually I find it curious that a passport is required at all for IGF.
> > > > After all quite a few people could travel to Berlin without one: not
> > > > only all Germans but everybody in the Schengen zone as well.
> > > >
> > > > Although the guidelines only talk about "picture ID", even if the
> > > > account creation form wants passport... has anybody tried to use
> > > > another type of ID?
> > > >
> > > > (Yeah, getting rid of nation states would solve this problem. I fear
> > > > we won't get it done in time for this year's IGF though.)
> > > >
> > > > Tapani
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 07 14:35, farzaneh badii (governance at lists.riseup.net) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > E-citizenship doesnt give you a passport to travel. The only
> > solution is
> > > > to
> > > > > get rid of the concept of nation states and treat people as people
> > and
> > > > not
> > > > > clans.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 2:23 PM Bill Woodcock <woody at pch.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Estonian E-citizenships, perhaps?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Doesn’t solve the problem, but it’s a work-around.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                 -Bill
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sep 6, 2019, at 01:52, Michael J. Oghia (via governance Mailing
> > > > List) <
> > > > > > governance at lists.riseup.net> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Ian,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks so much for this thoughtful response, and indeed, I sent it
> > in
> > > > > > frustration. I realise, however, that this issue goes way beyond
> > the
> > > > IGF.
> > > > > > Moreover, since a member of the Chinese government is a member of
> > the
> > > > MAG,
> > > > > > I seriously doubt the MAG would even be open to discussing it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The point you raise about stateless individuals is an interesting
> > one,
> > > > > > though, as I don't know what the protocol is for that. Taiwan
> > nationals
> > > > > > clearly aren't stateless, though, so those are two separate points
> > > > > > (regardless, I still recommend the IGF develop a procedure for
> > > > including
> > > > > > stateless individuals/groups).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It seems this is an injustice that will have to pursue, and she can
> > > > attend
> > > > > > remotely if interested.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > -Michael
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:46 AM ian.peter at ianpeter.com <
> > > > > > ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> I wish there was an easy answer to this Michael.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> But as I understand it, we are dealing with a whole-of-UN
> > problem, not
> > > > > >> just an IGF one. For whatever historic reasons, and they are to do
> > > > with
> > > > > >> recognition of the Peoples Republic of China, Taiwan is not
> > > > recognised by
> > > > > >> the UN as a nation state - although they would like to be and
> > have a
> > > > few
> > > > > >> allies pushing their cause.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I believe it goes back to 1971. China's attitude has been "The
> > *United
> > > > > >> Nations* is an international organization composed of sovereign
> > > > states.
> > > > > >> *Taiwan* as a province of China is completely *not* qualified and
> > *has
> > > > > >> no* right to participate in it. Due to the well-known reasons, the
> > > > > >> *Taiwan* authorities illegally usurped China's *UN* seat for as
> > long
> > > > as
> > > > > >> 22 years" (http://ae.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/twwt/t150866.htm)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> But having said that - others might be able to provide more
> > > > background -
> > > > > >> since IGF is not a meeting of nation states, but also includes
> > civil
> > > > > >> society and other stakeholders, one would think there might  be a
> > way
> > > > > >> around it. Yes, to register one needs a passport - maybe an ally
> > of
> > > > Taiwan
> > > > > >> would be prepared to issue passports or acceptab;e documents for
> > > > Taiwanese
> > > > > >> citizens?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I don't know how we could get around this, just brainstorming. In
> > an
> > > > > >> ideal IGF, stateless people would have a voice and be able to
> > attend,
> > > > > >> subject of course to standard security clearances. Maybe MAG could
> > > > explore
> > > > > >> this?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Ian Peter
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> ------ Original Message ------
> > > > > >> From: "Michael J. Oghia" <governance at lists.riseup.net>
> > > > > >> To: "IGC" <governance at lists.riseup.net>
> > > > > >> Sent: 6/09/2019 5:49:07 PM
> > > > > >> Subject: [governance] Taiwanese nationals and the IGF
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Hi everyone,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I'd like to raise a serious concern I have regarding the IGF. A
> > > > contact
> > > > > >> of mine in Taiwan is having trouble registering for the IGF. She
> > > > solely has
> > > > > >> a Taiwanese passport, but the IGF, as a UN event, can only
> > register
> > > > > >> individuals who have a passport from a UN member state (of which
> > > > Taiwan is
> > > > > >> not a member). I checked with the IGF Secretariat, and
> > unfortunately,
> > > > > >> there's not much they can do about it.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I know that the politics surrounding China and Taiwan are
> > contentious,
> > > > > >> however, this essentially means that she (and anyone else) from
> > > > Taiwan –
> > > > > >> more than 23.5 million people – are essentially barred from
> > attending
> > > > the
> > > > > >> IGF if they don't have another passport.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I find this *deeply problematic* and in violation of the
> > fundamental
> > > > > >> principles of the multi-stakeholder model, namely the fact that
> > it's
> > > > meant
> > > > > >> to be inclusive and open to all.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Has anyone encountered this problem in the past, either in the IG
> > > > sector
> > > > > >> or another development sector? Does anyone have ideas for how it
> > can
> > > > be
> > > > > >> resolved? I'm well aware this is not the first instance of a
> > Taiwanese
> > > > > >> national being excluded from participation in a global event, so
> > > > perhaps
> > > > > >> this is a moot point and no one can help. Still, it still strikes
> > me
> > > > as
> > > > > >> incredibly unjust and unfair that regional politics would prevent
> > > > > >> individuals from attending the IGF.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Best,
> > > > > >> -Michael
> > > > > >> __________________
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Michael J. Oghia | Advocacy & Engagement Manager
> > > > > >> Global Forum for Media Development (GFMD <https://gfmd.info>)
> > > > > >> Belgrade, Serbia | Twitter <https://www.twitter.com/MikeOghia> |
> > > > LinkedIn
> > > > > >> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeoghia>
> > > > > >>
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> > > > > --
> > > > > Farzaneh
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> -- 
> Farzaneh

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-- 
Tapani Tarvainen