[governance] IANA transition - BR Gov comments on the CCWG-Accountability Draft Proposal

Seth Johnson seth.p.johnson at gmail.com
Sat Jun 13 14:56:12 EDT 2015

Also note, I think you're proceeding very nicely.  Maybe more later.
I have so many different things to look at this weekend.


On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Seth Johnson <seth.p.johnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Mawaki Chango <kichango at gmail.com> wrote:
> I continue to reserve my right to observe!  :-P :-)
> Note that you asked about Togo; everything here is for your question
> from that point forward. My responses are directly to you when asked,
> and none of it contributes to a debate in which I chose a "side."
> :-)
> Seth
>> Well, this still remains a free and open conversation ;)  I was just trying
>> to draw the distinction between your set of arguments and the other line of
>> thought in the middle of which they occurred. I do note and appreciate that
>> yours was nonetheless a point completely in line with, while responding to
>> and cautioning about, one of the two opposite sides of the debate -- the
>> side that advises an international public jurisdiction for the
>> post-transition ICANN. And just to clarify, in response to a concern raised
>> by someone earlier in this thread, my understanding of what is meant by
>> "international jurisdiction" by the proponents of the idea here is a newly
>> created body of law by agreement among all/most concerned nations-states,
>> along with its specialized courts to enforce it.
>> Now, to begin wrapping up my "peregrinations" on this topic and, by the same
>> token, illustrating my "aspirational efforts at synthesis," ;) I'd say this.
>> 1) it doesn't seem like the question of ICANN's legal status and applicable
>> jurisdiction in the context of the PTI is going to be addressed before the
>> end of this year and so, not as part of the current transition if it were to
>> conclude by then.
>> 2) this doesn't mean that the issue is going to go away and won't be taken
>> up at a later stage. Only that we'll have to operate at some point, and
>> maybe only for some time (or maybe not), under a private corporation
>> jurisdiction which is that of the state of California, which itself is
>> subject to US federal law.
>> 3) to my earlier scenario (#1) concerned with access to US/Calif. legal
>> system for remote and not well or enough resourced Internet constituencies
>> and stakeholders, it has been suggested a number of things which for most
>> are rather like promises or palliatives based on hopes still to be tested.
>> It seems to me that structures such as ACLU or EFF (and their donors) also
>> respond to a political context, i.e. US politics, and we will have to wait
>> and see whether the incentives will appear for them to go fully and evenly
>> global in terms of where they might want to spend their money. Others such
>> as Open Society Foundations might also help, but again we are just betting
>> here on the will of private citizens.
>> There is the logistic based solution that has been suggested, which is to
>> use remote communication/conferencing tools. That's certainly part of the
>> solution. Some education will still need to be done so that the remote
>> stakeholders become fully aware as their counterparts in the applicable
>> jurisdiction that if as plaintiffs they just take the trouble to express and
>> write down their complaint in the vehicular language they are most familiar
>> with (or have someone write it down for them) they might, with a few clicks,
>> set in motion a legal procedure that will give them full and fair hearing,
>> and do justice to their cause. I guess that California relevant judges, in
>> this case, might also need to become fully aware that in these matters they
>> will also be dealing with customers from global multicultural backgrounds
>> (even though that doesn't change the letter of the law.)
>> 4) there remains another concern (which could have made it to my scenario
>> #2). What happens when USG decides to put a country on some black list for
>> some peculiar reason of its own which most of the nations-states disgree
>> with or do not find necessary (and which might not even have anything to do
>> with the Internet)? Wouldn't that country be shut off Californian courts for
>> any legal recourse in Internet matters? If so, is that an acceptable state
>> of affairs? What would be the remedy?
>> 5) all of that being said, according to the BR gov comments there remains
>> the need for other (or some) governments to validate the choice of a single
>> nation's jurisdiction. To that I suggested a form of delegation be set up
>> adapted to this particular context. Among other things, I thought that
>> presents the advantage of ridding us of the "either US or international"
>> dichotomy. But it probably presents more challenges than I'm able to
>> anticipate. In any case, it remains to be seen whether the BR gov position
>> gets some traction within the PTI's GAC. That may be the direction to look
>> next for any follow up on the question of legal status /jurisdiction. And
>> then of course what the community response will be.
>> Thanks,
>> Mawaki
>> /Brought to you by Mawaki's droid agent
>> I'm waiting on the second half of the discussion, on how the IANA
>> contracts would work "in a fair and equal manner for a global
>> constituency."
>> I would mostly note at this point that we have to also be attentive to
>> how the US is operating in relation to the UN agendas, employing them
>> in pursuit of its goals (including the IP maximalist concerns both
>> Parminder and Michael are concerned with).
>> Seth
>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 5:38 AM, "Kleinw├Ąchter, Wolfgang"
>> <wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de> wrote:
>>> Hi Parminder,
>>> before you continue to confuse well intended but ill informed members of
>>> the broader IANA/ICANN/Multistakeholder Internet community, I recommend to
>>> study more in
>>> detail the four excellent studies by SSAC
>>> https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/sac-071-en.pdf
>>> https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/sac-069-en.pdf
>>> https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/sac-068-en.pdf
>>> https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/sac-067-en.pdf
>>> For newcomers who want to get a first overview before they go into the
>>> details, I recommend the new IANA publication (see attachment).
>>> In the media we have a principle for good journalism which seperates facts
>>> and opinions. Bad journalism is mixing facts and opinions. Opinions are
>>> protected under Article 19 of the International Covenant of Political and
>>> Civil Rights. So everybody has a right to express her(his) ideological
>>> opinions and to argue for her/his case. Nothing is wrong with that. Even
>>> extreme opinions are protected, as long as they do not harm third parties.
>>> In contrary extreme opinions and hard fighting with arguments is needed to
>>> find the right way forward if a community is entering uncharted territory
>>> (which is the case with the IANA transition).
>>> There are always  people who (a.) want to keep the status quo, (b.)
>>> innovate and stumble forward or (c.) want moving backwards in (their) safe
>>> waters. But whatsoever: Any serious discussion of different opinions should
>>> be based on full knowledge of the various facets of an issue under
>>> discussion.
>>> There is an important difference here between a journalistic article and
>>> an academic paper: In journalism, it is common practice that you pick just
>>> one element which fits into your chain of arguments to justify your struggle
>>> for a certain outcome. In an academic paper you have to be neutral and to
>>> analyze all aspects, regardless if you like the facts or not. Furthermore,
>>> any proposed step has to be checked against unintended side-effects.
>>> Stresstests are an important element for that. Only with such an approach -
>>> called also SWOT (Strengh, Weakness, Opportunity, Threat) - you will find
>>> reasonable and workable solutions which balance the interests of all
>>> involved parties (and makes everybody probably equally unhappy).
>>> Fortunately the two CCWG groups who are working now on the IANA transition
>>> and new ICANN accountability models have taken the more academic approach
>>> which - hopefully - will lead to rough consensus and a sustainable step
>>> forward into the "uncharted territory". The interim results are impressive.
>>> However there is still a long way to go. More voices are welcome to join the
>>> debate.
>>> Wolfgang

-------------- next part --------------
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
To be removed from the list, visit:

For all other list information and functions, see:
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:

Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

More information about the Governance mailing list