[bestbits] Nothing to do with internet governance or NMI WAS Re: [governance] Whether to participate in NETmundial Initiative - RFC

Sun Nov 23 04:09:26 EST 2014

I agree with you that Democracy is an important issue. I keep thinking that your repeated attacks against democracy, are totally dangerous and toxic. (nothing ad hominem, but clearly challenging your opinion and the logic of your stance). You condemn democracy when you should point at the money (and people behind it) that is corrupting democracy. Democracy (as a political system) is not designed to produce corruption. Corruption has been a long lasting universal phenomena, and democracy has been one of the best regime to reduce it. Whether one belongs to a registered or non registered mafia, able to pay lawyers, advisors to twist the democratic game, that person is responsible and should be brought to justice (if under a democratic regime with an independent judicial system).

The only people confusing responsibilities (Democracy v.s the authors of these liabilities) are the ones I met over the years whom would justify and legitimate non progressive and no democratic regimes. 

More over you have produced no evidence that democracy - as a set of principles - was "responsible" for what is rightfully condemnable. Where is the democratic principle that legitimize lobbying as the twisting tool of public interest? You can look into a specific government, and tell us that this or that minister acted wrongfully and possibly criminally, and should be condemned. If he survives the justice of his country, his fellow countrymen can use their vote to outplay him - if in a democracy.

You confuse everyone by mixing the philosophical level and the criminal damages. Corruption doesn't belong to a specific political regime. You can find it in any country, under any kind of regime. The fact the the US has made find a way to legitimize political corruption thanks to the money they pour in lobbying firms, still does not make "democracy" is "responsible" for that. That school of thoughts has invade some places in Europe like Brussels. Thanks for the gift. That narrative of your belongs to what is usually labelled as "populist narrative". The US, that should be exemplary, has recently allowed corporations to fund with no limit candidates to the presidential race. That is a toxic decision, spinning this great country a little further away from a true democratic regime.

We all know that democracy is a constant fight.

Democracy bashing is condemnable as well, as it ruins the fundaments and principles that need to be constantly defended from internal or external attacks. And I have serious difficulty to deal with any "democratic basher". Some good samaritan are know selling an idea of going beyond democracy which IMO is a joke , and another way to simply kill democracy. They wish to 'improve' democracy, by touching as some of the fundamental principles. There is no beyond democratic principles. The question is how well understood, implemented, and applied principles in a democratic context are they. That can be improved, I agree. 

So if you keep demonstrating serious willingness to shoot at Democracy (as a set of principles) from within - you are not living in China, Barhain or Uganda right? - , don't expect anyone to apologize for pointing a finger at this anti-democratic behavior. Of course you are free to sincerely believe that you are a democrat. Like all the ones that believe that an equal footing decision making process including states, corporations, groupings of any sort, are democrats. IMO, this is a serious threat to democracy.

Please, clarify your thoughts and language. The conversation will become more pleasant. And I would be happy to continue exchanging views.

JC

Le 23 nov. 2014 à 04:49, McTim a écrit :

> I have no desire to engage in an offlist conversation, as what is at stake is too important to take offlist.  If Members of the IGC are unable to assert simple facts in evidence along the lines of  "it is Western democracies that have allowed the double Dutch-Irish sandwich", without being called, dangerous, insane and undemocratic then we have no basis upon which to continue to try and keep the IGC alive.
> 
> I would be happy to accept your apology and the retraction of your ad hominem attack onlist.
> 
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS I The Global Journal <jc.nothias at theglobaljournal.net> wrote:
> McTim,
> 
> Would it be so? Maybe we can spare the lists?
> 
> If you wish to talk to me privately about why I came to such conclusions (for both), I am ready to have a conversation with you.
> 
> JC
> 
> 
> 
> Le 22 nov. 2014 à 15:22, McTim a écrit :
> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 12:19 AM, Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS I The Global Journal <jc.nothias at theglobaljournal.net> wrote:
>> Peter,
>> 
>> I think it would be appropriate to gently refrain subscribers from falling into personal attack, or in abusively labeling others' opinion or view, discriminating any one for its citizenship, religion... Calling to refrain might not lead to more attack, but maybe cool down minds.
>> 
>> Yet in the last few days, you have made these 2 personal attacks:
>> 
>> "(At least we know you are no democrat)"
>> 
>> "this is insane and dangerous thinking"
>> 
>> In reply to an obvious factual assertion.  Perhaps you might think about retracting those comments and moderating your tone before you ask that others refrain from falling into personal attacks.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> McTim
>> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
>> ____________________________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
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> 
> For all other list information and functions, see:
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