[governance] PINGO

Thu May 15 04:21:02 EDT 2014

George,

As I've said in the past, I don't know ICANN sufficiently well to comment at
the depth that you are asking... My question however, was simply to suggest
that there is no particular reason to give ICANN a "free pass" as being
completely "internally driven" in its rule setting as per GG's post
especially given the discussion/controversy that has been presented here and
elsewhere concerning precisely this issue.

M

-----Original Message-----
From: George Sadowsky [mailto:george.sadowsky at gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 9:04 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; gurstein michael
Cc: Garth Graham
Subject: Re: [governance] PINGO

Michael,

It would certainly help if you were to be precise about the specific issues
and the specific path that the formulation of a rule took, to illustrate our
point.

George

On May 15, 2014, at 9:57 AM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

> While accepting your overall point Garth, I think in the specifics and 
> particularly for ICANN there would be the need to at least argue for, 
> if not demonstrate that the rules were in fact being "generated from 
> within the system".  A case could I believe (and has been made by 
> some) that the rules were in fact being generated for ICANN outside 
> the system (by corporations or specific governments) and then 
> "laundered" through ICANN for implementation. (I'm not arguing one way 
> or the other, but I would think that much of the discussion concerning 
> ICANN's accountability or lack thereof (and ultimately to whom it is 
> or should be accountable) was precisely around that point...
> 
> M
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Garth 
> Graham
> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 7:53 PM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"
> Cc: JOSEFSSON Erik
> Subject: Re: [governance] PINGO
> 
> I would like to underline that Kleinwächter is making a distinction in 
> rule making (i.e. in governance) between processes that are within the
system,
> and processes that are imposed from outside the system.  That 
> distinction is fundamental to understanding the principles governing 
> the organization of complex adaptive systems.  In effect, the 
> processes of rule making in the IETF, and the processes of policy 
> making in ICANN that mirror them, are governed by internal 
> self-organization.  The correct way to view them is as a beta test of 
> the direction that rule making is taking in digital culture.  To the 
> degree that weve begun to supply a roadmap that increases awareness 
> of how such processes of rule making work, it is perfectly natural for 
> governments to resist them.  After all, there are no governments that work
that way now.
> 
> GG
> 
> On 2014-05-12, at 4:15 AM, Kleinwächter, Wolfgang wrote:
>> yes, I think that RFC compliance falls into the "Open Standards" 
>> para. of
> the NeMundial document (Principle 8). But as you know, RFCs are not 
> legally binding. Everybody can disregard RFC Standards (and to build 
> an alternative
> root) but it is in the self-interests of the provider and user of 
> services to follow RFCs to be "as interoperable as possible". So the 
> checks and baalances are within the system, not in external oversight 
> bodies. And yes it would make sense if MEPs understand the RFC 
> culture. It could be a source of inspiration how to innovate rule making
in the Internet Age.
>> 
>> wolfgang
>> 
>> 
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org im Auftrag von JOSEFSSON 
>> Erik
>> Gesendet: Mo 12.05.2014 04:25
>> An: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Kleinwächter, Wolfgang
>> Betreff: [governance] RE: PINGO
>> 
>> Dear Mr Kleinwächter,
>> 
>> Thanks for the instructions in your article's last paragraph on how 
>> to use the NETmundial text! :-)
>> 
>> I wonder if RFC-compliance would fall within its OPEN STANDARDS
paragraph?
>> 
>> <quote>
>> OPEN STANDARDS
>> Internet governance should promote open standards, informed by 
>> individual
> and collective expertise and decisions made by rough consensus, that 
> allow for a global, interoperable, resilient, stable, decentralized, 
> secure, and interconnected network, available to all. Standards must 
> be consistent with human rights and allow development and innovation.
>> </quote>
>> 
>> If so, would it be advisable to use the NETmundial statement to 
>> inform
> public bodies like the European Parliament about RFC-compliance? As 
> the EP is providing email for us who work here, you could maybe argue 
> that it contributes to a widely used social network platform on the 
> internet and therefore, to some extent, contributes to "internet
governance"?
>> 
>> Grateful for advice.
>> 
>> I ask because we're working on connecting the dots (as far as those 
>> dots
> exist):
>> 
>> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/parl-user/Week-of-Mon-201405
>> 0
>> 5/000043.html
>> http://icg.greens-efa.eu/pipermail/hub/2014-May/000130.html
>> 
>> Best regards.
>> 
>> //Erik
>> 
>> ________________________________________
>> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
>> [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] on behalf of "Kleinwächter, 
>> Wolfgang" [wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de]
>> Sent: Sunday 11 May 2014 10:42
>> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> Subject: [governance] PINGO
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> here is my view how to deal with the section on Internet Principles 
>> of the
> NetMundial Sai Paulo Declaration.
>> 
>> http://www.circleid.com/posts/20140510_pingo_net_mundial_adopts_princ
>> i
>> ples_on_internet_governance/
>> 
>> wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
> 
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
> 
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

-------------- next part --------------
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
To be removed from the list, visit:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing

For all other list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/

Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t