[bestbits] [governance] Re: NMI and the Brazilian CGI.br

parminder parminder at itforchange.net
Fri Dec 5 08:09:36 EST 2014

On Thursday 04 December 2014 12:35 AM, Lee W McKnight wrote:
> Milton,
> You are being too kind in describing the abject failure of those past 
> non-neo-liberal policies, which had truly vile effects.
> Waiting lists stretched up to...12 years...for a simple landline 
> phone, in admittedly 'worst' cases.
> Post-liberalization entry of mobile phones uncovered such extreme 
> unmet demand that 1st mobiles (with service subscription) could sell 
> for up to $50,000 - 20 years ago, in one case I am familiar with. Yeah 
> that's right, when all one could do with a mobile was make a call.


If you/ Milton would claim deregulation of the communication sector in 
1990s and 2000s  as a final triumph of neoliberalism then would you call 
the recent call by most US civil society groups, and also by your 
President, for re-regulating the Internet as a tier 2 (telecom) service, 
as the US slipping into socialism... Just for the sake of consistency 
perhaps :) . And perhaps to take from the 'Internet is neoliberal', 
epithet of Milton, can we say that the Internet is now on the way to 
becoming socialist..

Remember, it is Milton that proposed the neoliberal - socialist binary, 
and you seem to be supporting it. I am just further exploring the 
possible implications of that binary.


> Lee
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org 
> <governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org> on behalf of Milton L Mueller 
> <mueller at syr.edu>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 3, 2014 12:10 PM
> *To:* 'governance at lists.igcaucus.org'; 'Avri Doria'; 'Bits 
> bestbits at lists.bestbits.net'
> *Subject:* RE: [bestbits] [governance] Re: NMI and the Brazilian CGI.br
> Can I introduce some rationality to this discussion?
> First, neo-liberalism is not per se a “vile label” unless you think 
> liberalism is vile, in which case you need to explain to me why you 
> think freedom of thought, expression, association, choice, popular 
> sovereignty and free trade are vile, all of which are the key features 
> of liberalism as an ideology or movement.
> Neo-liberalism in literal terms simply refers to the revival of 
> liberal thought that occurred in the 1970s and 1980s (i.e., “neo” + 
> “liberal”) following the economic stagnation brought on by the 
> excesses of the social democracy and regulatory state that emerged in 
> the 1920s and 30s. Whatever you think of the economic liberalizations 
> of that period, it’s pretty hard to argue with the record of 
> stagflation, budget crises of the welfare state, slowing or declining 
> growth, and a record of complete failure by socialist/communist 
> economies that occurred in that period.
> Thus, neo-liberalism does not mean indiscriminate application of 
> market principles to everything, but it did reflect a recognition that 
> many parts of society or the economy which had been exempted from 
> market forces were failing and could be improved through the 
> introduction of competition and market forces.
> The centerpiece of neoliberalism was globalization of the economy and 
> free trade. The term neoliberalism was coined as part of the backlash 
> against trade liberalization and the attempt by certain international 
> institutions to enforce budget constraints and sectoral liberalization 
> policies on developing countries as a condition for receiving loans or 
> aid. This is where some of the abuses or harder hands of the 
> Washington approach to liberalization could be felt; sometimes the 
> cookie-cutter approach to policy that was imposed was inappropriate. 
> But for the most part, that period saw rapid worldwide growth and 
> development. In particular, China and India opened their economies to 
> market forces and grew tremendously as a result.
> When I say that the Internet was a product of neoliberal policies I am 
> referring to several largely indisputable facts:
> a)Prior to ‘neoliberal’ policies the telecom system was the epitome of 
> social democracy: it was run as a state-owned monopoly, market forces 
> were largely absent.
> b)The developmental record of state-owned PTT monopolies was abysmal, 
> there were 1% - 10% penetration rates, 6 months waiting lists for 
> service, massive inefficiency and protectionism. Opponents of 
> neoliberalism need to own up to this.
> c)Competition stimulated rapid improvements in technology and massive 
> decreases in pricing for telecom services
> d)Free trade agreements for IT equipment and “information services” 
> made it possible for TCP/IP based services to spread rapidly across 
> the world regardless of state censorship or regulation
> In short, if you care about prosperity, growth, economic development 
> and freedom, and you want to have an intelligent discussion of the 
> role of public policy in the internet economy, all these things need 
> to be taken into account. If you want to call people names, I’m not 
> interested.
> --MM
> *From:*governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org 
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] *On Behalf Of *Avri Doria
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 2, 2014 1:47 AM
> *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Bits bestbits at lists.bestbits.net
> *Subject:* Re: [bestbits] [governance] Re: NMI and the Brazilian CGI.br
> On 02-Dec-14 07:38, parminder wrote:
>     Neoliberalism is defined as the application of market principles
>     to everything, including those areas in which such principles are
>     not normally applied. The above is a perfect case of the
>     application of market principles to governance, as I said , the
>     pristine neoliberal governance model.
> You may feel it is your privilege to villify others by tarring and 
> feathering them with the vile label of neoliberalism sometimes and 
> imperialism at other times.  I accept that you do so, yet I reject the 
> label you apply to me.
> I generally do not support market principles, but rather believe in 
> the tussle among those with different set of principles.
> avri
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>       bestbits at lists.bestbits.net.
> To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
>       http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.igcaucus.org/pipermail/governance/attachments/20141205/3221026d/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
To be removed from the list, visit:

For all other list information and functions, see:
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:

Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

More information about the Governance mailing list