[governance] The noose is closing on global Internet and other enabled tax dodging

michael gurstein gurstein at gmail.com
Thu May 23 07:17:02 EDT 2013 

I think it might be useful to know precisedly what you disagree with in what
I wrote...
	1. that stakeholderism is about including those with "stakes" i.e.
"interests" in a decision (making process)
	2. that there are various stakeholders involved in MS processes
pursuing various stakes i.e. corporations pursue corporate interests/stakes;
governments pursue national interests/stakes; civil society pursues the
public/citizen interests/stakes and so on; and alliances/conflicts may
develop/shift as between various stakeholders and across various
deliberations
	3. that deliberations/MS processes are about finding ways of
accommodation between stakes/stakeholders
	4. that in some instances some parties/stakeholders try to game the
system by (surreptitiously) having others present/promote stakes on their
behalf
M

-----Original Message-----
From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh at hserus.net] 
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 11:54 AM
To: michael gurstein
Cc: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Riaz K Tayob
Subject: Re: [governance] The noose is closing on global Internet and other
enabled tax dodging

That makes several assumptions, broad, sweeping ones, that I absolutely
refuse to share.

They are assumptions that, when held and expressed, only serve to drive a
wedge between industry and civil society, and poison any attempts at
discourse or engagement between these stakeholder groups.

The constantly vituperative language and lack of trust used to describe any
action at all by a corporation in this space are symptoms of an uncivil
society, thankfully shared by what appears to be, at the most, a vocal
splinter group among civil society.

--srs (iPad)

On 23-May-2013, at 14:10, "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

> MSism is a method to ensure that all those with a "stake" (interest) 
> in a decision have an opportunity to participate in those decisions.
> 
> Good faith participation in these "deliberations" (quoting Riaz's 
> excellent
> discussion) requires that those involved be clear and open as to what 
> their stake/interest is in a particular deliberation.
> 
> If a participant attempts to mask their interests (or the pursuit of 
> its
> interests) by, for example, developing mechanisms to have other of the 
> stakeholders surreptitiously articulate or promote these interests 
> while hiding that fact, that is what is normally understood as
"astro-turfing"...
> (as for example having supposedly CS participants/stakeholders 
> pursuing corporate interests rather than the public interest which is 
> what one assumes is their rationale for participation...
> 
> In an interest based deliberation there will necessarily and of 
> course, be shifting sets of alliances as some interests among some 
> stakeholder groups temporarily align/coincide for some purposes and in 
> some contexts.  This is different from the deliberate process of not 
> being open about the interests that one is pursuing or whose interests one
is representing.
> 
> If the shoe fits, wear it...
> 
> M
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Suresh 
> Ramasubramanian
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 10:57 AM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Riaz K Tayob
> Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> Subject: Re: [governance] The noose is closing on global Internet and 
> other enabled tax dodging
> 
> I am sorry, please correct me if I am wrong, but there was some talk 
> of multistakeholderism.
> 
> If any action at all by a stakeholder group is continuously disparaged 
> in one term or the other, generally suggesting mens rea  - 
> "astroturfing", say
> - this argues that, while you accept that corporations are actors in 
> the IG field, you view their every action as negative and to be 
> opposed.  Funnily enough, that apparently extends even to actions 
> where they might make common cause with civil society.
> 
> --srs (iPad)
> 
> On 23-May-2013, at 13:20, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On 2013/05/22 03:23 PM, McTim wrote:
>>> Indeed, there are some folk who think they can be the arbiter of who 
>>> is in which SH group.
>> 
>> It is not a matter of who is an arbiter or not, imho.
>> 
>> It is about the practice of astro-turfing... wrapping up corporate
> interest as public interest. In a representative system, this is not a 
> problem. In a deliberative system, it can be. A contest of interest 
> may be a means of social organisation, but that does not necessary 
> imply it is reasonable. A rational method does not guarantee a 
> reasoned outcome. If reason fails in the articulalation of a position 
> or policy, then the interest may be valid, but its ability to garner 
> consensus is difficult if deliberative, and depending on numbers easy 
> if representative. Hence compositional issues are important, if we are 
> to avoid fallacy of composition. Which is why some USers on this list 
> may yawn when it comes to the regulatory revolving door in the US and 
> other places because the state as a site for deliberative politics is in
my view not fully understood.
>> 
>>> correct.  if we want to blame someone, let's blame the folk who 
>>> wrote the current rules!
>> As argued previously, yes the problem can be what is legal. Like 
>> ICANN/DOC
> arrangments....
>> 
>> While general population gets the Sequester in the US (cutting even 
>> air
> traffic controllers) big corporates get tax loopholes to fly through...
> meanwhile the Banks get 'cash for trash'.
>> 
>> How does this relate to Internet Governance. Corporates are actors in 
>> the
> IG field, thus understanding their role, and consequently seat at the 
> MS table is important. It may not meet some precision standards, but 
> it is hardly a matter that is irrelevant...
>> 
>> 
>> 
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