[governance] FW: [IP] NSA has direct access to tech giants' systems for user data, secrAnet files reveal | World news | guardian.co.uk

Suresh Ramasubramanian suresh at hserus.net
Sun Jun 9 07:36:32 EDT 2013 

Bought and paid for, you say. It is quite funny where I keep missing the 
fat paychecks someone is supposed to be sending me to listen to this 
'tangential' stuff

Whoever is supposed to pay me for this, I demand a raise, you hear? The 
inflation I get to face here isn't entirely because of hot air from eminent 
third worldist libertarians who feel empowered to claim with impunity that 
people disagreeing with their views are quite simply paid lackeys of big 
government, evil corporations, or any of the other bugbears that infest the 
global north.

--srs (htc one x)



On 9 June 2013 3:42:57 PM Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes we can change this. On this list these matters are tangential for some 
> of the active players here. If there is a denial of the problem, or 
> obstructions in even seeking to discuss it then democracy or not, it does 
> not matter.  Seems like much of the mainstream press and civil society is 
> bought and paid for (by association or through 'ideology) which is why in 
> even in finance bankers get away with stuff while homeowners are foreclosed 
> upon on fraudulent documents. That too can be changed. Everything can be 
> changed. Sometimes to keep things the same everything else needs to be changed.
>
> Funny thing about this issue though is that there is bipartisan support 
> (Foreign Intelligence Committee). There is consensus on this issue. And 
> that is democratic too. How does it feel to be treated like Afghans, 
> Iraqi's, Latino's, Africans and Asians? Good for the goose, good for the 
> gander... as we used to say in our interminable arguments before... some 
> counted on foreigners being treated differently, and so it was ok because 
> 'they hate our freedoms'. Madison sought to dispel this myth.
>
> Do you think one can work against the ruthlessness of the singlerooters and 
> not be idealist? And, Idealism must be tempered by realism. The realism not 
> to be hounded, for instance, on this list, for holding third worldist 
> views. And when a change is made, then protests begin. And this is a 
> non-binding forum :)
>
> In short, you all in the N. America's are going to get your butts kicked 
> (it has been happening but mandatory optimism seems to get in the way of 
> feeling it, as EFF has been pointing out for a long time, and now the ACLU) 
> and perhaps it is time for a change... let's see. As I said, I will not be 
> holding my breadth, but I suspect that lots of people will be Swartzed.
>
> This is just an outsider view, so may be coloured by all sorts of 
> prejudices and unfocussed because of distance, but it seems (at rough 
> approximation) that progressive forces are poorly organised on this issue 
> (in collecting power terms) and in any event are characterised by sterling 
> performers (like EFF) and others with coalitions that seem to have too many 
> hypocrites.
>
> Pity, so much of this is emancipatory.
>
> Riaz
>
>
> On 2013/06/08 06:50 PM, Kerry Brown wrote:
> >
> > I’m still not sure if you agree or disagree with my contention that in a 
> modern democracy we have a chance to change this type of behaviour by those 
> in power. I understand that historically things were different. I 
> understand that some people don’t think that we have a chance to change 
> this. I understand that many people have written or spoken about this. What 
> I don’t understand so far is if you agree or disagree that in a modern 
> democracy this can be changed. I’m not saying it would be easy or even that 
> the odds are good. All I’m saying is the chance exists and I for one am 
> working to making it happen. I don’t believe that defeatism is useful in 
> reality or as an argument against working for change.
> >
> > Kerry Brown
> >
> > *From:*Riaz K Tayob [mailto:riaz.tayob at gmail.com]
> > *Sent:* June-08-13 8:06 AM
> > *To:* Kerry Brown
> > *Cc:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> > *Subject:* Re: [governance] FW: [IP] NSA has direct access to tech 
> giants' systems for user data, secrAnet files reveal | World news | 
> guardian.co.uk
> >
> > I believe in the reality of choice.
> >
> > To translate, from one Third World perspective, pithily:
> >
> > 1. Imperialism (abroad) breeds tyranny at home - Madison saw it. Foreign 
> entanglements were a real problem because of the kind of people it 
> strengthened in power.
> >
> > 2. Europe later America has had the tools for the emancipation of 
> humanity. They have not been up to the task. Hence the challenge by some 
> third worldists on the monopoly of definition and the rights to determine 
> the terms of the terms of the debate (much like Haitian's took liberte, 
> egalite, fraternity and gave the vote to all irrespective of property 
> ownership).
> >
> > 3. As Pouzin pointed out, this is old hat, but gets coverage now. 
> Groundless (as meta-narrative - like centre/periphery, third worldism) 
> "evidence" cannot rebut the presumption in favour of advanced countries who 
> live under a dualistic system - increasingly democratic but also paranoic 
> and hence authoritarian-like.
> >
> > 4. In historical time, Madison points out this has been constitutive of 
> democracy itself, much like the early US settlers who wanted to be free 
> men, including free to keep slaves.
> >
> > Riaz
> >
> > On 2013/06/08 05:43 PM, Kerry Brown wrote:
> >
> >     I’m not sure of your point. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with
> >     my contention that in a modern democracy we have a chance to
> >     change this type of behaviour by those in power?
> >
> >     Kerry Brown
> >
> >     *From:*governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> >     <mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>
> >     [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] *On Behalf Of *Riaz
> >     K Tayob
> >     *Sent:* June-08-13 7:19 AM
> >     *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> >     <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
> >     *Subject:* Re: [governance] FW: [IP] NSA has direct access to tech
> >     giants' systems for user data, secrAnet files reveal | World news
> >     | guardian.co.uk
> >
> >     In time of actual war, great discretionary powers are constantly
> >     given to the Executive Magistrate. Constant apprehension of War,
> >     has the same tendency to render the head too large for the body.
> >     *A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not
> >     long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence against
> >     foreign danger have been always the instruments of tyranny at
> >     home.* Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war,
> >     whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the
> >     armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the
> >     people.
> >
> >       * Speech, Constitutional Convention
> >         <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Convention>
> >         (1787-06-29
> >         
> <http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=1787-06-29&action=edit&redlink=1>),
> >         from Max Farrand's /Records of the Federal Convention of
> >         1787,/ vol. I [1]
> >         
> <http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llfr&fileName=001/llfr001.db&recNum=494&itemLink=D?hlaw:5:./temp/%7Eammem_kmli::%230010495&linkText=1>
> >         (1911), p. 465
> >
> >     On 2013/06/08 04:45 PM, Kerry Brown wrote:
> >
> >         Here is a Canadian perspective on this. How many other 
> governments are doing this?
> >
> > >
> >         http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6869/125/
> >
> > >
> >         We are living in 1984. This is not just a privacy issue. It is a 
> fundamental change in our western democratic values. The only way we can 
> change this is by keeping this at the forefront in the media. It must be a 
> top issue in all elections. That is the good thing about democracies. 
> Change is possible. It may take a long time, but it is possible.
> >
> > >
> >         Kerry Brown
> >
> > >
>
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