<html>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<p>Bought and paid for, you say. It is quite funny where I keep missing the
fat paychecks someone is supposed to be sending me to listen to this
'tangential' stuff <br>
<br>
Whoever is supposed to pay me for this, I demand a raise, you hear? The
inflation I get to face here isn't entirely because of hot air from
eminent third worldist libertarians who feel empowered to claim with
impunity that people disagreeing with their views are quite simply paid
lackeys of big government, evil corporations, or any of the other bugbears
that infest the global north. <br>
<br>
--srs (htc one x)<br>
</p>
<br><p>
<p>On 9 June 2013 3:42:57 PM Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob@gmail.com> wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<head>
</head>
Yes we can change this. On this list these matters are tangential
for some of the active players here. If there is a denial of the
problem, or obstructions in even seeking to discuss it then
democracy or not, it does not matter. Seems like much of the
mainstream press and civil society is bought and paid for (by
association or through 'ideology) which is why in even in finance
bankers get away with stuff while homeowners are foreclosed upon on
fraudulent documents. That too can be changed. Everything can be
changed. Sometimes to keep things the same everything else needs to
be changed.<br>
<br>
Funny thing about this issue though is that there is bipartisan
support (Foreign Intelligence Committee). There is consensus on this
issue. And that is democratic too. How does it feel to be treated
like Afghans, Iraqi's, Latino's, Africans and Asians? Good for the
goose, good for the gander... as we used to say in our interminable
arguments before... some counted on foreigners being treated
differently, and so it was ok because 'they hate our freedoms'.
Madison sought to dispel this myth.<br>
<br>
Do you think one can work against the ruthlessness of the
singlerooters and not be idealist? And, Idealism must be tempered by
realism. The realism not to be hounded, for instance, on this list,
for holding third worldist views. And when a change is made, then
protests begin. And this is a non-binding forum :)<br>
<br>
In short, you all in the N. America's are going to get your butts
kicked (it has been happening but mandatory optimism seems to get in
the way of feeling it, as EFF has been pointing out for a long time,
and now the ACLU) and perhaps it is time for a change... let's see.
As I said, I will not be holding my breadth, but I suspect that lots
of people will be Swartzed.<br>
<br>
This is just an outsider view, so may be coloured by all sorts of
prejudices and unfocussed because of distance, but it seems (at
rough approximation) that progressive forces are poorly organised on
this issue (in collecting power terms) and in any event are
characterised by sterling performers (like EFF) and others with
coalitions that seem to have too many hypocrites. <br>
<br>
Pity, so much of this is emancipatory.<br>
<br>
Riaz<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2013/06/08 06:50 PM, Kerry Brown
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:A0615421071EDD4A9F851117D67D538A8256052C@EXCH01.KDBSystems.local"
type="cite">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered
medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;
color:black;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:201674252;
mso-list-template-ids:-1411981320;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:72.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:108.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:144.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:180.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:216.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:252.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:288.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:324.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l1
{mso-list-id:873545804;
mso-list-template-ids:-1531171248;}
@list l1:level1
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:72.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:108.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:144.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:180.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:216.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:252.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:288.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:324.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m
still not sure if you agree or disagree with my contention
that in a modern democracy we have a chance to change this
type of behaviour by those in power. I understand that
historically things were different. I understand that some
people don’t think that we have a chance to change this. I
understand that many people have written or spoken about
this. What I don’t understand so far is if you agree or
disagree that in a modern democracy this can be changed. I’m
not saying it would be easy or even that the odds are good.
All I’m saying is the chance exists and I for one am working
to making it happen. I don’t believe that defeatism is
useful in reality or as an argument against working for
change.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Kerry
Brown<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> Riaz K Tayob
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com">mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> June-08-13 8:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kerry Brown<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] FW: [IP] NSA has
direct access to tech giants' systems for user data,
secrAnet files reveal | World news |
guardian.co.uk<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I believe in
the reality of choice.<br>
<br>
To translate, from one Third World perspective, pithily:<br>
<br>
1. Imperialism (abroad) breeds tyranny at home - Madison saw
it. Foreign entanglements were a real problem because of the
kind of people it strengthened in power.
<br>
<br>
2. Europe later America has had the tools for the
emancipation of humanity. They have not been up to the task.
Hence the challenge by some third worldists on the monopoly
of definition and the rights to determine the terms of the
terms of the debate (much like Haitian's took liberte,
egalite, fraternity and gave the vote to all irrespective of
property ownership).<br>
<br>
3. As Pouzin pointed out, this is old hat, but gets coverage
now. Groundless (as meta-narrative - like centre/periphery,
third worldism) "evidence" cannot rebut the presumption in
favour of advanced countries who live under a dualistic
system - increasingly democratic but also paranoic and hence
authoritarian-like. <br>
<br>
4. In historical time, Madison points out this has been
constitutive of democracy itself, much like the early US
settlers who wanted to be free men, including free to keep
slaves.<br>
<br>
Riaz<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2013/06/08 05:43 PM, Kerry Brown
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m
not sure of your point. Are you agreeing or disagreeing
with my contention that in a modern democracy we have a
chance to change this type of behaviour by those in
power?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Kerry
Brown</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Riaz K Tayob<br>
<b>Sent:</b> June-08-13 7:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] FW: [IP] NSA has
direct access to tech giants' systems for user
data, secrAnet files reveal | World news |
guardian.co.uk</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In time of actual war, great
discretionary powers are constantly given to the
Executive Magistrate. Constant apprehension of War, has
the same tendency to render the head too large for the
body.
<b>A standing military force, with an overgrown
Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty.
The means of defence against foreign danger have been
always the instruments of tyranny at home.</b> Among
the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war,
whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all
Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of
defending, have enslaved the people.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo3">
Speech, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Convention"
title="w:Philadelphia Convention">
Constitutional Convention</a> (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=1787-06-29&action=edit&redlink=1"
title="1787-06-29 (page does not exist)">1787-06-29</a>),
from Max Farrand's
<i>Records of the Federal Convention of 1787,</i> vol.
I <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llfr&fileName=001/llfr001.db&recNum=494&itemLink=D?hlaw:5:./temp/%7Eammem_kmli::%230010495&linkText=1">[1]</a>
(1911), p. 465<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2013/06/08 04:45 PM, Kerry Brown
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Here is a Canadian perspective on this. How many other
governments are doing this?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6869/125/">http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6869/125/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>We are living in 1984. This is not just a privacy
issue. It is a fundamental change in our western democratic values. The
only way we can change this is by keeping this at the forefront in the
media. It must be a top issue in all elections. That is the good thing
about democracies. Change is possible. It may take a long time, but it is
possible.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Kerry Brown<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>