[governance] France Proposes an Internet Tax
michael gurstein
gurstein at gmail.com
Wed Jan 23 01:23:57 EST 2013
Thanks for this Lee, very informative
But just to say that I would have
assumed that any initiative as proposed by France would have taken the WTO
etc.etc. into account--and in matters of fiscal urgency which is what one is
beginning to detect in these areas, where there is a will there is a way (or
at least ask Amazon
And I'm rather more interested in animating a parade towards a prudent
revocation of the Washington Consensus (abandoned now by even the WB) than I
am in exploring the depths of another attempt at a Doha round
M
From: Lee W McKnight [mailto:lmcknigh at syr.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 4:19 PM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch; michael
gurstein; 'Nick Ashton-Hart'
Subject: RE: [governance] France Proposes an Internet Tax
Hi,
To refresh folks historical memories....in early e-commerce days the US,
Europe and elsewhere put a moratorium on - sales taxes - on online
transactions. The US also entered into many bilateral trade deals that
either focused on or included an e-commerce section.
Later, as online biz grew, the argument for treating online transactions
distinct from off-line faded; except for Amazon, which gamed US law for more
than decade pretending that they could not tell who they were truly
transacting with nor where they lived; so therefore they could not be
expected to collect sales taxes.
Then when that argument broke down, they said they could not be expected to
collect sales taxes where they had no employees; and would promptly fire
people - some to be rehired by 'independent third parties' in any state that
tried to force Amazon to collect sales taxes on transactions in that (US)
state. That included all their California employees.
Finally, in 2012, I believe Amazon finally ended this charade; more or less.
(To be fair, this whole 'nexus' issue ties back to Supreme Court cases from
the 19th century and Sears Roebuck catalogs being delivered to folks in the
middle of nowhere; where there was no 'state' agent on hand to collect the
tax anyway. We might reasonably think of Amazon as this century's
equivalent of that fat print catalog from the past; certainly the US Supreme
Court has.
Anyway, yes I can assure you all that OECD has been discussing tax policy
and international trade in services issues since the earliest ecommerce
days; this next generation set of issues re serving ads on free services are
somewhat distinct but governed by the same general provisions of WTO trade
in services agreements when the firm does not have a 'nexus' in a particular
country; and by domestic law and tax policy when it does.
Which still must conform to general WTO policies. OECD's most recent push
has been to attempt to shut down various - tax and finance havens - which
obviously have had only limited effect, but do explain why the Swiss bank
secrecy laws finally changed/caved to rest of OECD pressure, about 4 years
ago.
All of this however is generally not handled by the OECD's ICCP committee,
but by a whole different set of discussions and players at OECD including as
Nick noted, trade and finance ministry folks.
My own bit part in this was sending one of my internet- and finance-savvy
students to OECD as an intern to help out their tax folks back in those
early early days; I have not kept up on all the latest I confess.
Attaining global harmonization on treatment of online transactions,and
cross-border trade in services, would perhaps be further along already if
the WTO's Doha Round wasn't stuck in neutral for the past couple decades.
Meaning, Michael, should cs/igc wish to see or encourage further progress in
harmonization of Internet taxation, we would necessarily ally with the
businesses and governments pressing for further globalization of the world
economy; to date unsuccessfully. Many emerging market and developing nations
have resisted pressure to permit further liberalization of international
trade in services. Just as many OECD member states have resisted dropping
various protectionist measures for their agricultural sectors in particular.
Hence the stalemate from Doha to Seattle to South Africa to Vancouver if I
recall the various failed WTO meeting locales correctly.
I confess I am enjoying imagining Michael as the surprise spokesperson for a
revived Doha Round! ; )
(And Bill - did I misstate or miss anything significant here in my quickie
summary?)
Lee
_____
From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
[governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] on behalf of Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
Baruch [apisan at unam.mx]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 6:37 PM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; michael gurstein; 'Nick Ashton-Hart'
Subject: RE: [governance] France Proposes an Internet Tax
Michael,
in the same "what if" vein... what if the clever boffins in the OECD have
realized that there is nothing exceptional about money made over the
Internet, and leave it to each country to continue to try to exact taxes
from income, profits and rents, as the countries' laws, regional
arrangements, multipartite and global treaties mandate and allow? Wouldn't
they be even more keen in stopping gaps and diversion schemes than any
participant in these discussions is? (you said they are clever, they are
boffins, and they are in the OECD... the rest is my second guessing.)
They may also be truly concerned about maintaining the technical integrity
and global seamlessness of the Internet. I know a few people who share all
these characteristics. Anyone talking to them to find out directly?
Yours,
Alejandro Pisanty
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
Facultad de Química UNAM
Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475
Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
_____
Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
[governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de michael gurstein
[gurstein at gmail.com]
Enviado el: martes, 22 de enero de 2013 16:38
Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; 'Nick Ashton-Hart'
Asunto: RE: [governance] France Proposes an Internet Tax
As an aside and addressed to no one in particular, it occurs to me that for
those who are truly concerned about maintaining the technical integrity and
global seamlessness of the Internet should be looking to find appropriate
and globally equitable means for taxation of Internet related activities
rather than presenting ideologically based anti-tax posturing.
France may or may not succeed with this particular initiative, but behind
them are most of the other OECD countries and behind them is the rest of the
world looking to get some fair share from rapidly escalating Internet based
revenues. Better to my mind to have a reasonable and technically compliant
plan in place than to attempt to play catch up as every country thunders
forward with its own national taxation scheme and chaos in some form ensues
(Anyone want to bet that the clever boffins in the OECD aren't already
working in this direction?
M
From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
[mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Nick Ashton-Hart
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 2:17 PM
To: William Drake
Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Subject: Re: [governance] France Proposes an Internet Tax
We've found that there's a need for much more coordination and consultation
between ministries responsible for ITU matters and trade ministries.
--
Regards,
Nick Ashton-Hart
Geneva Representative
Computer & Communications Industry Assocation (CCIA)
Tel: +41 (22) 534 99 45
Fax: : +41 (22) 594-85-44
Mobile: +41 79 595 5468
USA DID: +1 (202) 640-5430
Need to meet with me? Schedule the time that suits us both here:
http://meetme.so/nashton
Sent from my one of my handheld thingies, please excuse linguistic mangling.
On 22 Jan 2013, at 21:22, William Drake <william.drake at uzh.ch> wrote:
On Jan 22, 2013, at 9:18 PM, Nick Ashton-Hart <nashton at ccianet.org> wrote:
It would not be possible for a measure to target foreign companies only -
that would breach France's WTO obligations (and that of many other countries
were they to try to do the same thing).
A small problem that seemed to receive zero discussion among the proponents
in Dubai
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