<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Palatino;
panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
p.msochpdefault, li.msochpdefault, div.msochpdefault
{mso-style-name:msochpdefault;
mso-style-priority:99;
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.emailstyle18
{mso-style-name:emailstyle18;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.apple-style-span
{mso-style-name:apple-style-span;}
span.EmailStyle23
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks for this Lee, very informative… But just to say that I would have assumed that any initiative as proposed by France would have taken the WTO etc.etc. into account--and in matters of fiscal urgency which is what one is beginning to detect in these areas, where there is a will there is a way (or at least ask Amazon…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And I'm rather more interested in animating a parade towards a prudent revocation of the Washington Consensus (abandoned now by even the WB) than I am in exploring the depths of another attempt at a Doha round…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Lee W McKnight [mailto:lmcknigh@syr.edu] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 22, 2013 4:19 PM<br><b>To:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org; Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch; michael gurstein; 'Nick Ashton-Hart'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] France Proposes an Internet Tax<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><br>Hi,<br><br>To refresh folks historical memories....in early e-commerce days the US, Europe and elsewhere put a moratorium on - sales taxes - on online transactions. The US also entered into many bilateral trade deals that either focused on or included an e-commerce section.<br><br>Later, as online biz grew, the argument for treating online transactions distinct from off-line faded; except for Amazon, which gamed US law for more than decade pretending that they could not tell who they were truly transacting with nor where they lived; so therefore they could not be expected to collect sales taxes.<br><br>Then when that argument broke down, they said they could not be expected to collect sales taxes where they had no employees; and would promptly fire people - some to be rehired by 'independent third parties' in any state that tried to force Amazon to collect sales taxes on transactions in that (US) state. That included all their California employees.<br><br>Finally, in 2012, I believe Amazon finally ended this charade; more or less. (To be fair, this whole 'nexus' issue ties back to Supreme Court cases from the 19th century and Sears Roebuck catalogs being delivered to folks in the middle of nowhere; where there was no 'state' agent on hand to collect the tax anyway. We might reasonably think of Amazon as this century's equivalent of that fat print catalog from the past; certainly the US Supreme Court has.<br><br>Anyway, yes I can assure you all that OECD has been discussing tax policy and international trade in services issues since the earliest ecommerce days; this next generation set of issues re serving ads on free services are somewhat distinct but governed by the same general provisions of WTO trade in services agreements when the firm does not have a 'nexus' in a particular country; and by domestic law and tax policy when it does. <br><br>Which still must conform to general WTO policies. OECD's most recent push has been to attempt to shut down various - tax and finance havens - which obviously have had only limited effect, but do explain why the Swiss bank secrecy laws finally changed/caved to rest of OECD pressure, about 4 years ago. <br><br>All of this however is generally not handled by the OECD's ICCP committee, but by a whole different set of discussions and players at OECD including as Nick noted, trade and finance ministry folks.<br><br>My own bit part in this was sending one of my internet- and finance-savvy students to OECD as an intern to help out their tax folks back in those early early days; I have not kept up on all the latest I confess.<br><br>Attaining global harmonization on treatment of online transactions,and cross-border trade in services, would perhaps be further along already if the WTO's Doha Round wasn't stuck in neutral for the past couple decades. <br><br>Meaning, Michael, should cs/igc wish to see or encourage further progress in harmonization of Internet taxation, we would necessarily ally with the businesses and governments pressing for further globalization of the world economy; to date unsuccessfully. Many emerging market and developing nations have resisted pressure to permit further liberalization of international trade in services. Just as many OECD member states have resisted dropping various protectionist measures for their agricultural sectors in particular. Hence the stalemate from Doha to Seattle to South Africa to Vancouver if I recall the various failed WTO meeting locales correctly. <br><br>I confess I am enjoying imagining Michael as the surprise spokesperson for a revived Doha Round! ; )<br><br>(And Bill - did I misstate or miss anything significant here in my quickie summary?)<br><br>Lee<br><br> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><div id=divRpF657959><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org] on behalf of Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch [apisan@unam.mx]<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 22, 2013 6:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; michael gurstein; 'Nick Ashton-Hart'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] France Proposes an Internet Tax</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Michael, <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>in the same "what if" vein... what if the clever boffins in the OECD have realized that there is nothing exceptional about money made over the Internet, and leave it to each country to continue to try to exact taxes from income, profits and rents, as the countries' laws, regional arrangements, multipartite and global treaties mandate and allow? Wouldn't they be even more keen in stopping gaps and diversion schemes than any participant in these discussions is? (you said they are clever, they are boffins, and they are in the OECD... the rest is my second guessing.) <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>They may also be truly concerned about maintaining the technical integrity and global seamlessness of the Internet. I know a few people who share all these characteristics. Anyone talking to them to find out directly?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Yours,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Alejandro Pisanty<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><br><span class=apple-style-span> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty</span><br><span class=apple-style-span>Facultad de Química UNAM </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico</span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475 </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><br>Blog: <a href="http://pisanty.blogspot.com">http://pisanty.blogspot.com</a><br>LinkedIn: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty">http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty</a><br>Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614">http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614</a><br>Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/apisanty">http://twitter.com/apisanty</a><br>---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, <a href="http://www.isoc.org">http://www.isoc.org</a><br>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . </span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><div id=divRpF693681><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Desde:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de michael gurstein [gurstein@gmail.com]<br><b>Enviado el:</b> martes, 22 de enero de 2013 16:38<br><b>Hasta:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; 'Nick Ashton-Hart'<br><b>Asunto:</b> RE: [governance] France Proposes an Internet Tax</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As an aside and addressed to no one in particular, it occurs to me that for those who are truly concerned about maintaining the technical integrity and global seamlessness of the Internet should be looking to find appropriate and globally equitable means for taxation of Internet related activities rather than presenting ideologically based anti-tax posturing.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>France may or may not succeed with this particular initiative, but behind them are most of the other OECD countries and behind them is the rest of the world looking to get some fair share from rapidly escalating Internet based revenues. Better to my mind to have a reasonable and technically compliant plan in place than to attempt to play catch up as every country thunders forward with its own national taxation scheme and chaos in some form ensues…</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(Anyone want to bet that the clever boffins in the OECD aren't already working in this direction?</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Ashton-Hart<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 22, 2013 2:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> William Drake<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] France Proposes an Internet Tax</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:black'>We've found that there's a need for much more coordination and consultation between ministries responsible for ITU matters and trade ministries. <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Nick Ashton-Hart<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Geneva Representative<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Computer & Communications Industry Assocation (CCIA)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Tel: +41 (22) 534 99 45<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Fax: : +41 (22) 594-85-44<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Mobile: +41 79 595 5468<span class=apple-style-span> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>USA DID: +1 (202) 640-5430<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:black'>Need to meet with me? Schedule the time that suits us both here: <a href="http://meetme.so/nashton" target="_blank">http://meetme.so/nashton</a></span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Sent from my one of my handheld thingies, please excuse linguistic mangling.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:black'><br>On 22 Jan 2013, at 21:22, William Drake <<a href="mailto:william.drake@uzh.ch" target="_blank">william.drake@uzh.ch</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>On Jan 22, 2013, at 9:18 PM, Nick Ashton-Hart <<a href="mailto:nashton@ccianet.org" target="_blank">nashton@ccianet.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Palatino","serif";color:black'>It would not be possible for a measure to target foreign companies only - that would breach France's WTO obligations (and that of many other countries were they to try to do the same thing).</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>A small problem that seemed to receive zero discussion among the proponents in Dubai<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>