[governance]http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127

David Conrad drc at virtualized.org
Tue Nov 27 19:20:38 EST 2012


I suspect a pre-requisite to answering Michael's question is defining what "the Internet" actually encompasses.

Regards,
-drc

On Nov 27, 2012, at 4:16 PM, Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:

> Disagree with Ginger (that doesnt happen often!)
>  
> no regulation of the internet period means to me
>  
> * large corporations control what happens via market power
> * paypal can suspend all payments to wikileaks or whoever offends their sensibilities with no ramifications or checks and balances and political judgements of corporations can determine access
> * paedophilia, hate mail etc are completely unchecked
> * cybercrime is OK
> * all governments can act unilaterally to block sites according to whatever power they can exert on either corporations or their local ISP industry.
>  
> Frankly, to me this is a horror scenario.
>  
> But where I do agree with Ginger is aiming for a tolerable version of #2.
>  
> Ian Peter
>  
> From: Ginger Paque
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:06 AM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org ; michael gurstein
> Cc: Suresh Ramasubramanian ; Michael Kende
> Subject: Re: [governance] http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127
>  
> I think we have to push hard for #1, and hope we get a tolerable version of #2.
> 
> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
> 
> VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
> Diplo Foundation
> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
> www.diplomacy.edu/ig
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 27 November 2012 17:45, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
> But surely that is the point of civil society, not to be a cheer leader for the status quo but rather to push governments and others towards their higher angels.
> 
>  
> 
> M
> 
>  
> 
> From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh at hserus.net] 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 3:10 PM
> To: gurstein at gmail.com; 'Michael Kende'; governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> Subject: Re: [governance]http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127
> 
>  
> 
> Of course you will have to expect that not all proposals submitted will be driven by pure altruism. 
> 
> Narrower interests... Protectionism, politics, whatever else will inform several proposals. 
> 
> And you can't rely on the major players being purely driven by altruism, I'm afraid. 
> 
> --srs (htc one x)
> 
> 
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
> To: "'Michael Kende'" <Michael.Kende at analysysmason.com>, <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
> Subject: [governance]http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127
> Date: Wed, Nov 28, 2012 2:26 AM
> 
> 
> Hi Michael,
> 
> 
> 
> We can do some thought experiments around what option #2 would look like as
> for example, to deal with the issues of global/natonal security on the
> Internet but at the end of the day my guess is that it would look rather
> like a UN agency except one that had been updated from 19th century modes of
> operation (and assumptions about appropriate structures of governance) to
> ones more reflective of 21st century modes/assumptions and technology.
> 
> 
> 
> How we get from here to there is of course, a challenge but if the major
> players are in fact operating in good faith with an overarching concern for
> the health and well being of the Internet infrastructure as a global public
> good rather than pursuing narrow national or commercial interests then
> developing a suitable set of mechanisms shouldn't be impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> And you are right about "incumbents"--I was of course referring to dominant
> Internet players rather than telco incumbents.
> 
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> From: Michael Kende [mailto:Michael.Kende at analysysmason.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 12:20 PM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; michael gurstein; 'Lee W McKnight'
> Subject: RE: [governance]
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320
> 121127
> 
> 
> 
> Michael,
> 
> 
> 
> What would #2 look like?  Who would be responsible, what jurisdiction would
> they have, what hole would they fill?   I think it is possible to prefer 1
> over 3 even if you might prefer #2 to emerge, but there is no broadly
> articulated alternative, so what would you propose?
> 
> 
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> PS since a number of commercial incumbents are in fact behind one of the
> proposals to add Internet issues to the ITRs, I do not think your last
> statement is strictly accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of michael gurstein
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:03 PM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; 'Lee W McKnight'
> Subject: RE: [governance]
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320
> 121127
> 
> 
> 
> I think it might be useful if the various discussants involved in the
> WCIT/ITU debate were to indicate which of these categories they would fall
> into:
> 
>                1. no regulation of the Internet period
> 
>                2. possible regulation/global governance of the Internet in
> certain areas for certain issues but not by the ITU
> 
>                3. regulation of the Internet in certain identified issue
> areas by the ITU
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me that a lot of the loudest voices in the discussion have come
> from those whose broad position is #1 but in a feat of legerdemaine they
> have managed to stampede many of those whose ultimate position would be #2
> (based on a reasoned assessment of the broad needs of the global community)
> to support them by arguing that there were in fact only two options #1 and
> #3.
> 
> 
> 
> That option #1 (i.e. the default option) would seem to strongly favour the
> current dominant geo-political and commercial incumbents is of course purely
> accidental.
> 
> 
> 
> M
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Lee W McKnight
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 10:44 AM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> Subject: [governance]
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320
> 121127
> 
> 
> 
> In case you missed it...today's Reuters article re WCIT.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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