<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=iso-8859-1"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I suspect a pre-requisite to answering Michael's question is defining what "the Internet" actually encompasses.<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>-drc<br><div><br><div><div>On Nov 27, 2012, at 4:16 PM, Ian Peter <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<div>Disagree with Ginger (that doesnt happen often!)</div>
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<div>no regulation of the internet period means to me</div>
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<div>* large corporations control what happens via market power</div>
<div>* paypal can suspend all payments to wikileaks or whoever offends their
sensibilities with no ramifications or checks and balances and political
judgements of corporations can determine access</div>
<div>* paedophilia, hate mail etc are completely unchecked</div>
<div>* cybercrime is OK</div>
<div>* all governments can act unilaterally to block sites according to whatever
power they can exert on either corporations or their local ISP industry.</div>
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<div>Frankly, to me this is a horror scenario.</div>
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<div>But where I do agree with Ginger is aiming for a tolerable version of
#2.</div>
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<div>Ian Peter</div>
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<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a title="gpaque@gmail.com" href="mailto:gpaque@gmail.com">Ginger Paque</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:06 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="governance@lists.igcaucus.org" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a> ;
<a title="gurstein@gmail.com" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">michael
gurstein</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="suresh@hserus.net" href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">Suresh Ramasubramanian</a> ; <a title="Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com" href="mailto:Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com">Michael Kende</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance]
<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</a></div></div></div>
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<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: Calibri; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none; ">I
think we have to push hard for #1, and hope we get a tolerable version of
#2.<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">Ginger (Virginia) Paque<br><br>
<div><a href="mailto:VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu" target="_blank">VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu</a><br><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-SIZE: small">Diplo Foundation<br>Internet
Governance Capacity Building Programme<br><a href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/ig" target="_blank">www.diplomacy.edu/ig</a><span style="WIDTH: 16px; PADDING-RIGHT: 16px; HEIGHT: 16px"></span><br><span style="WIDTH: 16px; PADDING-RIGHT: 16px; HEIGHT: 16px"></span><span style="WIDTH: 16px; PADDING-RIGHT: 16px; HEIGHT: 16px"></span><span style="WIDTH: 16px; PADDING-RIGHT: 16px; HEIGHT: 16px"></span>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On 27 November 2012 17:45, michael gurstein <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">But
surely that is the point of civil society, not to be a cheer leader for the
status quo but rather to push governments and others towards their higher
angels.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">M<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Suresh
Ramasubramanian [mailto:<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 27,
2012 3:10 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>; 'Michael Kende'; <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[governance]<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127" target="_blank">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</a><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Of course you will have to expect
that not all proposals submitted will be driven by pure altruism.
<br><br>Narrower interests... Protectionism, politics, whatever else will
inform several proposals. <br><br>And you can't rely on the major players
being purely driven by altruism, I'm afraid. <br><br>--srs (htc one
x)<br><br><br>----- Reply message -----<br>From: "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>To: "'Michael Kende'" <<a href="mailto:Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com" target="_blank">Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>><br>Subject: [governance]<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127" target="_blank">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</a><br>Date:
Wed, Nov 28, 2012 2:26 AM<br><br></span><br>Hi Michael,<br><br><br><br>We can
do some thought experiments around what option #2 would look like as<br>for
example, to deal with the issues of global/natonal security on the<br>Internet
but at the end of the day my guess is that it would look rather<br>like a UN
agency except one that had been updated from 19th century modes
of<br>operation (and assumptions about appropriate structures of governance)
to<br>ones more reflective of 21st century modes/assumptions and
technology.<br><br><br><br>How we get from here to there is of course, a
challenge but if the major<br>players are in fact operating in good faith with
an overarching concern for<br>the health and well being of the Internet
infrastructure as a global public<br>good rather than pursuing narrow national
or commercial interests then<br>developing a suitable set of mechanisms
shouldn't be impossible.<br><br><br><br>And you are right about
"incumbents"--I was of course referring to dominant<br>Internet players rather
than telco
incumbents.<br><br><br><br>Best,<br><br><br><br>Mike<br><br><br><br>From:
Michael Kende [<a href="mailto:Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com" target="_blank">mailto:Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com</a>] <br>Sent: Tuesday,
November 27, 2012 12:20 PM<br>To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; michael gurstein; 'Lee W
McKnight'<br>Subject: RE: [governance]<br><a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320" target="_blank">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320</a><br>121127<br><br><br><br>Michael,<br><br><br><br>What
would #2 look like? Who would be responsible, what jurisdiction
would<br>they have, what hole would they fill? I think it is
possible to prefer 1<br>over 3 even if you might prefer #2 to emerge, but
there is no broadly<br>articulated alternative, so what would you
propose?<br><br><br><br>Michael<br><br><br>PS since a number of commercial
incumbents are in fact behind one of the<br>proposals to add Internet issues
to the ITRs, I do not think your last<br>statement is strictly
accurate.<br><br><br><br><br><br>From: <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>[<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] On Behalf Of
michael gurstein<br>Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:03 PM<br>To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; 'Lee W McKnight'<br>Subject:
RE: [governance]<br><a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320" target="_blank">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320</a><br>121127<br><br><br><br>I
think it might be useful if the various discussants involved in
the<br>WCIT/ITU debate were to indicate which of these categories they would
fall<br>into:<br><br>
1. no regulation of the Internet
period<br><br>
2. possible regulation/global governance of the Internet in<br>certain areas
for certain issues but not by the
ITU<br><br>
3. regulation of the Internet in certain identified issue<br>areas by the
ITU<br><br><br><br>It seems to me that a lot of the loudest voices in the
discussion have come<br>from those whose broad position is #1 but in a feat of
legerdemaine they<br>have managed to stampede many of those whose ultimate
position would be #2<br>(based on a reasoned assessment of the broad needs of
the global community)<br>to support them by arguing that there were in fact
only two options #1 and<br>#3.<br><br><br><br>That option #1 (i.e. the default
option) would seem to strongly favour the<br>current dominant geo-political
and commercial incumbents is of course
purely<br>accidental.<br><br><br><br>M<br><br><br><br><br><br>From: <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>[<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] On Behalf Of
Lee W McKnight<br>Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 10:44 AM<br>To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>Subject: [governance]<br><a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320" target="_blank">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320</a><br>121127<br><br><br><br>In
case you missed it...today's Reuters article re
WCIT.<br><br><br><br><br>_____ <br><br>This email is confidential and is
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