[governance] Re: Reasons for 'Internet Traffic Intelligence and Surveillance" products
Riaz K Tayob
riaz.tayob at gmail.com
Sun Nov 4 14:35:33 EST 2012
Foo
With governance arrangements (and a large part of innovation) in the US,
there are synergies that are created... which kinda improves the US
comparative advantage in competition on this issue... now is that a
level playing field? Are transaction costs lower for US suppliers? How
can barriers to entry be dealt with... this aside from the ethics of
such products which as Auerbach said may be necessary for smooth operations?
Riaz
On 2012/11/03 02:34 AM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
>
> A very valid point Nick. Equal footing will always be a challenge to
> counter such.
>
> Foo
>
> On Nov 2, 2012 9:19 PM, "Nick Ashton-Hart" <nashton at ccianet.org
> <mailto:nashton at ccianet.org>> wrote:
>
> Dear Fouad,
>
> Whatever kind of market economy the US has (or any other for that
> matter does not alter The fundamental point that a demand for a
> product will find someone somewhere ready to supply it. While it
> is important to deal with the supply, you will never completely
> eliminate it until you deal with the demand.
>
> Sent from one of my handheld thingies, please forgive linguistic
> mangling
>
> On 2 Nov 2012, at 07:33, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com
> <mailto:fouadbajwa at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Dear Milton,
>>
>> Your comments are welcome as always! One has to add the element
>> of confusion not to be re-quoted intentionally or unintentionally
>> where such authoritarian regimes are at play and one may be prone
>> to concerns!
>>
>> My previous comments are based upon facts that I hear
>> occasionally quoted during US leadership statements on online FoE
>> and protection of pluralism and at the end of the day companies
>> from that country are on the forefront of bidding and deploying
>> traffic intelligence Okay, these companies operate in a free
>> market environment but then the credibility of such statements
>> collapse amidst surveillance cooperation even if its done by
>> companies from that region.
>>
>> I have always felt that the US has mixed market dynamics and
>> regulators do keep an eye and do not tend to overlook the fact
>> that their companies do have country level offices that can
>> independently participate in government contracts outside the US.
>>
>> I will have to differ here that devoted support for US and
>> Canadian traffic monitoring and intelligence companies that they
>> are not involved in censorship because I have witnessed credible
>> information.
>>
>> I must point out that your defense for the Northern American
>> companies argument depicts the traditional free market support
>> whereas I am inclined to believe that its a mixed market approach
>> because the government diplomacy in terms of Foreign Policy and
>> economic drives cannot be completely ignorant of a key component
>> of its globalization agenda/strategy of which Internet is an
>> important tool and catalyst of a global world order. Anyways,
>> these are from the airport, do I see you in Baku?
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Fouad
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:32 AM, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu
>> <mailto:mueller at syr.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Fouad:
>>
>> Your answer to David’s question reveals a lot of confusion,
>> in my opinion.
>>
>> Markets respond to supply and demand. It is a simple and
>> predictable feature of markets that businesses (whether in
>> the US or anywhere else) will try to sell their products to
>> people who want to use them and have the money to pay for
>> them. So we have a shared responsibility: for DPI and related
>> surveillance and content-filtering equipment, the *demand* is
>> created by authoritarian governments who want to control the
>> Internet in their country, while the *supply* comes from
>> profit-motivated businesses who can meet that demand. Many of
>> these suppliers, by the way, are NOT from the U.S.; many are
>> from Europe, and some are from China or elsewhere.
>>
>> Don’t blame the US advocates of FoE for that.
>>
>> As for the “dual FoE internet policy,” well, it’s time to
>> grow up and look at states, including the US state, as
>> self-interested actors and stop believing in the fairy tale
>> that they magically embody the public interest or the
>> people’s will. It’s also time for you to recognize that
>> nearly all states have contradictory political pressures on
>> them; just as the Pakistani govt doesn’t want to alienate the
>> hardcore islamists while continuing to receive $$$ from the
>> US, the US govt (specifically, the State Dept) wants to
>> promote internet freedom while some Congressional pressures
>> want us to withhold nearly all technology from “enemies” or
>> repressive states, and some business-centric agencies and
>> congresspeople want us to expand our market share in foreign
>> countries’ technology purchases by selling them more equipment.
>>
>> *From:*governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
>> <mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>
>> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
>> <mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>] *On Behalf Of
>> *Fouad Bajwa
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 30, 2012 7:14 PM
>> *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Suresh Ramasubramanian
>> *Cc:* David Conrad
>> *Subject:* Re: Reasons for 'Internet Traffic Intelligence and
>> Surveillance" products (was Re: [governance] speaker at the
>> opening ceremony?)
>>
>> Let me try to answer the confusion quickly while I am
>> multitasking between packing and documentation:
>>
>> I'd rather remain implicit. I am sure many of my colleagues
>> from developing countries can list a long list of issues that
>> their countries are concerned about and may be sharing during
>> the WCIT meet and that this list has been discussing in
>> numerous ITR related threads etc. at the end of the day it is
>> more or less around US centric IRM and the challenges of
>> censorship and content filtering. Its not just about iran,
>> russia and china, there are more than a hundred other
>> countries out of which a majority are developing regions and
>> imposing various forms of censorship.
>>
>> My confusion stands around the dual FoE internet policy of
>> these countries that requires some responsibility. Okay, its
>> not only boeing/narus, cisco or sandvine selling censorship
>> but we have huwae in the league of traffic intelligence and
>> DPI as well. Alright, it may be business as usual but this is
>> giving some countries to show and tell the amazing censorship
>> they have implemented.
>>
>> Yes there are jurisdiction issues at play here but then some
>> countries believe in resorting to censorship, blocking and
>> filtering.
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 2:13 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian
>> <suresh at hserus.net <mailto:suresh at hserus.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Or is it fouads argument that sandvine gear was bought
>> specifically to censor any discussion of the cir process? I
>> don't quite understand the logic here either
>>
>> --srs (htc one x)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Reply message -----
>> From: "David Conrad" <drc at virtualized.org
>> <mailto:drc at virtualized.org>>
>> To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>>
>> Subject: Reasons for 'Internet Traffic Intelligence and
>> Surveillance" products (was Re: [governance] speaker at the
>> opening ceremony?)
>> Date: Tue, Oct 30, 2012 9:01 PM
>>
>>
>> Fouad,
>>
>> On Oct 30, 2012, at 6:20 AM, Fouad Bajwa
>> <fouadbajwa at gmail.com <mailto:fouadbajwa at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > The fact remains that as US-Centric Internet Resource
>> Management remains, countries have been sold various Internet
>> Traffic Intelligence and Surveillance systems by US and
>> Canadian companies. An evident example is the use of Sandvine
>> traffic intelligence by PTCL Pakistan Telecommunication
>> Company Limited. PTCL is the largest ICT/Telecom provider in
>> the country and manages the Internet trunks.
>>
>> I'm curious: how does "US-Centric Internet Resource
>> Management" cause PTCL (et al) to purchase products like
>> Sandvine's?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -drc
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> --
>> Regards.
>> --------------------------
>> Foo
>>
>>
>>
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