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Foo<br>
<br>
With governance arrangements (and a large part of innovation) in the
US, there are synergies that are created... which kinda improves the
US comparative advantage in competition on this issue... now is that
a level playing field? Are transaction costs lower for US suppliers?
How can barriers to entry be dealt with... this aside from the
ethics of such products which as Auerbach said may be necessary for
smooth operations?<br>
<br>
Riaz<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2012/11/03 02:34 AM, Fouad Bajwa
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAHuaJtN=T77Ryhyh4s79kbN78iMOx3+9UevNYvTu9o181iZuBg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">A very valid point Nick. Equal footing will always be
a challenge to counter such.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Foo</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 2, 2012 9:19 PM, "Nick
Ashton-Hart" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nashton@ccianet.org">nashton@ccianet.org</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Dear Fouad,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Whatever kind of market economy the US has (or any
other for that matter does not alter The fundamental point
that a demand for a product will find someone somewhere
ready to supply it. While it is important to deal with the
supply, you will never completely eliminate it until you
deal with the demand.</div>
<div><br>
Sent from one of my handheld thingies, please forgive
linguistic mangling</div>
<div><br>
On 2 Nov 2012, at 07:33, Fouad Bajwa <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:fouadbajwa@gmail.com" target="_blank">fouadbajwa@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Dear Milton,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Your comments are welcome as always! One has to add
the element of confusion not to be re-quoted
intentionally or unintentionally where such
authoritarian regimes are at play and one may be prone
to concerns! </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My previous comments are based upon facts that I
hear occasionally quoted during US leadership
statements on online FoE and protection of pluralism
and at the end of the day companies from that country
are on the forefront of bidding and deploying
traffic intelligence Okay, these companies operate in
a free market environment but then the credibility of
such statements collapse amidst surveillance
cooperation even if its done by companies from that
region.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have always felt that the US has mixed market
dynamics and regulators do keep an eye and do not tend
to overlook the fact that their companies do have
country level offices that can independently
participate in government contracts outside the US.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I will have to differ here that devoted support for
US and Canadian traffic monitoring
and intelligence companies that they are not involved
in censorship because I have witnessed credible
information. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I must point out that your defense for the Northern
American companies argument depicts the traditional
free market support whereas I am inclined to believe
that its a mixed market approach because the
government diplomacy in terms of Foreign Policy and
economic drives cannot be completely ignorant of a key
component of its globalization agenda/strategy of
which Internet is an important tool and catalyst of a
global world order. Anyways, these are from the
airport, do I see you in Baku? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Fouad<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:32
AM, Milton L Mueller <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d">Fouad:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d">Your answer to
David’s question reveals a lot of
confusion, in my opinion.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d">Markets respond
to supply and demand. It is a simple and
predictable feature of markets that
businesses (whether in the US or anywhere
else) will try to sell their products to
people who want to use them and have the
money to pay for them. So we have a shared
responsibility: for DPI and related
surveillance and content-filtering
equipment, the
<b>demand</b> is created by authoritarian
governments who want to control the
Internet in their country, while the
<b>supply</b> comes from profit-motivated
businesses who can meet that demand. Many
of these suppliers, by the way, are NOT
from the U.S.; many are from Europe, and
some are from China or elsewhere.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d">Don’t blame the
US advocates of FoE for that.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d">As for the “dual
FoE internet policy,” well, it’s time to
grow up and look at states, including the
US state, as self-interested actors and
stop believing in the fairy tale that they
magically embody the public interest or
the people’s will. It’s also time for you
to recognize that nearly all states have
contradictory political pressures on them;
just as the Pakistani govt doesn’t want to
alienate the hardcore islamists while
continuing to receive $$$ from the US, the
US govt (specifically, the State Dept)
wants to promote internet freedom while
some Congressional pressures want us to
withhold nearly all technology from
“enemies” or repressive states, and some
business-centric agencies and
congresspeople want us to expand our
market share in foreign countries’
technology purchases by selling them more
equipment. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Fouad Bajwa<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 30,
2012 7:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
Suresh Ramasubramanian<br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Conrad<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Reasons for
'Internet Traffic Intelligence and
Surveillance" products (was Re:
[governance] speaker at the opening
ceremony?)</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Let me try to answer
the confusion quickly while I am
multitasking between packing and
documentation:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'd rather remain
implicit. I am sure many of my
colleagues from developing countries can
list a long list of issues that their
countries are concerned about and may be
sharing during the WCIT meet and that
this list has been discussing in
numerous ITR related threads etc. at the
end of the day it is more or less around
US centric IRM and the challenges of
censorship and content filtering. Its
not just about iran, russia and china,
there are more than a hundred other
countries out of which a majority are
developing regions and imposing various
forms of censorship.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My confusion stands
around the dual FoE internet policy of
these countries that requires some
responsibility. Okay, its not only
boeing/narus, cisco or sandvine
selling censorship but we have huwae
in the league of traffic intelligence
and DPI as well. Alright, it may be
business as usual but this is giving
some countries to show and tell the
amazing censorship they have
implemented. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Yes there
are jurisdiction issues at play here
but then some countries believe in
resorting to censorship, blocking and
filtering.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Oct 31,
2012 at 2:13 AM, Suresh
Ramasubramanian <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net"
target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Or
is it fouads argument that
sandvine gear was bought
specifically to censor any
discussion of the cir process? I
don't quite understand the logic
here either<br>
<br>
--srs (htc one x)</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
<br>
<br>
----- Reply message -----<br>
From: "David Conrad" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:drc@virtualized.org"
target="_blank">drc@virtualized.org</a>><br>
To: <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>><br>
Subject: Reasons for 'Internet
Traffic Intelligence and
Surveillance" products (was Re:
[governance] speaker at the
opening ceremony?)<br>
Date: Tue, Oct 30, 2012 9:01 PM</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Fouad,<br>
<br>
On Oct 30, 2012, at 6:20 AM, Fouad
Bajwa <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:fouadbajwa@gmail.com"
target="_blank">fouadbajwa@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> The fact remains that as
US-Centric Internet Resource
Management remains, countries have
been sold various Internet Traffic
Intelligence and Surveillance
systems by US and Canadian
companies. An evident example is
the use of Sandvine traffic
intelligence by PTCL Pakistan
Telecommunication Company Limited.
PTCL is the largest ICT/Telecom
provider in the country and
manages the Internet trunks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I'm
curious: how does "US-Centric
Internet Resource Management"
cause PTCL (et al) to purchase
products like Sandvine's?</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Thanks,<br>
-drc<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
Regards.<br>
--------------------------<br>
Foo</p>
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