[governance] Hmmmm... Google: "Internet Freedom!"... (from taxes?

Riaz K Tayob riaz.tayob at gmail.com
Fri Dec 7 08:57:23 EST 2012 

Puh-leez!

It is perfectly fine to rubbish an idea _with reasons_. That is not a 
"lie", it is _argument_.

Perhaps, its time to draw a line with you on these kinds of matters :)))))



On 2012/12/07 03:47 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
> :)  In other words, calling McTim's statements a lie rather than 
> calling him a liar?
>
> No, no game at all.  Just tired of petty politics.
>
> --srs (iPad)
>
> On 07-Dec-2012, at 19:11, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com 
> <mailto:riaz.tayob at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Au contraire SRS
>>
>> He called the internationalism phony- it is even highlighted with 
>> quotes.
>>
>> Are you exacerbating matters here? Precision counts in a charge like 
>> this. What's your game?
>>
>> On 2012/12/07 09:27 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
>>> Parminder, if you persist in using terms like phony to refer to 
>>> McTim and then call the list police down on Milton for allegedly 
>>> being rude to you, that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
>>>
>>> --srs (htc one x)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Reply message -----
>>> From: "parminder" <parminder at itforchange.net>
>>> To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>>> Subject: [governance] Hmmmm... Google: "Internet Freedom!"... (from 
>>> taxes?
>>> Date: Fri, Dec 7, 2012 12:39 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday 06 December 2012 07:32 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Riaz,
>>> >
>>> > Like Parminder, you’ve overused this charge of “American
>>> > exceptionalism,” to the point where it reflects more on you than on
>>> > the target. Indeed if you, like Parminder, apply it to me it shows
>>> > that you are completely ignorant of my writings on the subject or 
>>> that
>>> > you are simply hurling a blanket epithet at whoever is standing
>>> > around, whenever they disagree. So, no point in discussing further.
>>> >
>>>
>>> Milton,
>>>
>>> Dont know why you are pulling me into this out of nowhere .... but if
>>> you want me to come in, here i am, at your service :)
>>>
>>> (BTW, I must first say that I find your recent comments to Riaz
>>> extremely rude, and I hope that the concerned duty bearers are 
>>> taking note.)
>>>
>>> So, you object to the use of the term 'US exceptionalism'! You are on
>>> record asserting repeatedly that you think ICANN should continue to be
>>> subject to US laws, at least in the areas of regulation of non-profits,
>>> competition and FoE...... presumable more...... (in any case an entity
>>> is either subject to a jurisdiction, or it is not; there are no choices
>>> available for an entity to be subject to some laws and not others).
>>>
>>> Have you not said so? Please do let us know if you havent, and even if
>>> you have changed your mind now.
>>>
>>> In the above regard you dont even agree with those who seek, what I 
>>> call
>>> as, 'phoney internationalisation' (McTim's case) whereby ICANN
>>> internationalisation is sought without being able to suggest any
>>> credible institutional basis for doing it. (You are perhaps too
>>> politically clued-in and can make out that such phony
>>> internationalisation without providing the political- institutional
>>> basis for it is simply not possible.)
>>>
>>> You however do not agree for ICANN to be subject to international law,
>>> or laws of other countries (do you agree to ICANN shifting to New
>>> Delhi?) , and you want it to be subject to US laws. Now that is
>>> literately 'US exceptionalism', isnt it! I cant see how the term can be
>>> applied more accurately than in this case.....
>>>
>>> parminder
>>>
>>>
>>> > *From:*governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org 
>>> <mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>
>>> > [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] *On Behalf Of *Riaz 
>>> K Tayob
>>> > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 4:06 PM
>>> > *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Dominique Lacroix
>>> > *Subject:* Re: [governance] Hmmmm... Google: "Internet Freedom!"...
>>> > (from taxes?
>>> >
>>> > Frankly I am not sure what kind of institutionalist Milton is. 
>>> This is
>>> > not the Alexander Hamilton, Daniel Rayomond, Richard Ely, E Pershine
>>> > Smith, Frederich List and JK Galbraith, who all had a keen head for
>>> > facts and history.
>>> >
>>> > Britain used free trade ideas as a means to maintain its dominance
>>> > over other nations. The workshop of the world that encouraged 
>>> everyone
>>> > to liberalise, that free trade (and then classical economics) was
>>> > best. And in the Pax (?) Americana, neoclassical economics (in
>>> > infinite disguises) and the Washington Consensus serves the same
>>> > function.
>>> >
>>> > Now I have no truck disagreeing with Mueller on economics - these
>>> > approaches differ in method as well as context, so there is room for
>>> > disagreement. But on the politics of the matter (sorry Milton, for
>>> > some Institutionalists if it is relevant then it must be included in
>>> > the "calculation") Milton, with what I surmise from his
>>> > Institutionalism - not having read all his work, is no different from
>>> > American Exceptionalists on this list. Of course I am aware that in
>>> > the American context(where what passes for progressive is quit
>>> > different, this may well be the case. It simply cannot be generalised.
>>> >
>>> > And in the "competition" through subsidised efforts Europe builds
>>> > capabilities - both the tech no-(harware) and -ology (its people). 
>>> One
>>> > of the key elements of benefiting from a network is that skills 
>>> can be
>>> > diffused. Consumption of technology rich goods is not the same as
>>> > producing them. Actually in a reverse sort of way the status quoists
>>> > (exceptionalists, Institutionalists of a special type, neoliberals,
>>> > etc) seek to maintain the US dominance by playing to that nations
>>> > comparative advantage - also in institutions like ICANN and the posse
>>> > that goes with it.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 2012/12/05 10:25 PM, Dominique Lacroix wrote:
>>> >
>>> >     Le 05/12/12 20:26, Milton L Mueller a écrit :
>>> >
>>> >         "Frankly", development of the TCP/IP protocols were supported
>>> >         by military research contracts, which had no intention of
>>> >         supporting a commercial industry. "The Internet" spread to the
>>> >         general population and succeeded because of telecommunications
>>> >         liberalization and a free market.
>>> >
>>> >     Dear Milton, you seem a little dizzy. You skipped merrily the NSF
>>> >     action in the 1981-1995 years...
>>> >     And then, also, the CIA action, via the In-Q-Tel venture capital
>>> >     firm, launched in 1999.
>>> >     And also the military orders in the advanced IT field.
>>> >     Perhaps I forget something. I'm also a bit dizzy...
>>> >
>>> >     The government played an important role in facilitating that
>>> >     process by privatizing control and paving the way for competition
>>> >     among ISPs. There is no doubt about that.
>>> >
>>> >     Exact. And not enough: Google should be prosecuted for dominance
>>> >     abuse.
>>> >
>>> >     While we are being frank, perhaps you can tell me how successful
>>> >     European efforts to subsidize search engine technology to compete
>>> >     with Google has been?
>>> >
>>> >     I assume you already heard about the networks effect that gives an
>>> >     advantage to the first big player.
>>> >     That's exactly why China and other countries protect their
>>> >     boundaries in order to help their IT industry to find existence.
>>> >
>>> >     Do you think that Europe also ought to close their virtual 
>>> boundaries?
>>> >
>>> >     @+, Dom
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >     Please frankly, Milton, did internet begin in the US by free
>>> >     market or by the US Gov action?
>>> >
>>>
>>
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